http://www.brickboard.com/FORUMS/uid=40532 The Volvo owner's resource since 1997. en Copyright 1997-2009, Jarrod Stenberg Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:15 GMT Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:15 GMT brickadmin@denizen.net brickadmin@denizen.net volvo 1440 http://www.brickboard.com/images/logo_b_25.gif http://www.brickboard.com/ 25 25 The Volvo owner's resource since 1997. I am relatively new to the front-wheel-drive Volvos, but drove a 245 for 20+ years before. Two or three times I have needed advise, Klaus was always there. ARRIBA KLAUS! Charlie '94 855 auto. running great '88 244 5 speed, running great too '53 Chevy Pickup (disassembled now) http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1379757&rss=1 Fri, 16 Oct 2009 02:41 GMT Thank you Lee. It is automatic (unfortunately, I really wanted a 5 speed wagon to replace my '85 245) So the fluid would accumulate on the "front half" of the booster? I will see if i can remove the bolts and peek in the back of the MC. Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1374700&rss=1 Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:45 GMT The 855 is roaming the streets again! see my last post yesterday. Next on the TO-DO list, brake fluid is going somewhere, about every 3 months or so the little light comes on, telling brake fluid is low. I looked at the master cylinder, looked as far as I could on lines, the ABS thing, the booster, i do not see any fluid around the calipers either. Best regards, Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1374670&rss=1 Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:26 GMT Well folks, I have to admit to being the doubting Thomas for the idea of the "lawnmore effect". But I have seen, and I believe. I got home from work, plugged the battery charger while I removed the spark plugs. The spark plug hole is a lot deeper than my little squirt gun could reach, soo I went to the kitchen and got a drinking straw. About 2" worth of Marvel Mystery Oil went into each cylinder, closed and connected everything and the thing started at the first crank. I expected to see a curtain of smoke like the Blue Angels, but it was only a little puff, maybe the Mystery Oil (whatever that is) does not smoke as much. I had one of the lifters clattering for a minute (it does that when i do not drive it for a few days) eventually it quieted down. I took the wagon out and went to the freeway, put it in 3rd and got it just past 65mph (speed limit) for the "Italian Tune-Up". It was only spinning about 3,800 rpm, i got it past 4,000 rpm a few times when i could see clearly ahead. Did that for about 20 minutes. I do not know that there was a marked difference, we shall see. I have a debt of gratitude to each and every one of you. I hope that this write up helps someone in the future. I ended up buying a new tool (fuel pressure gauge) which is good :-), and will be putting some regular copper spark plugs this coming Saturday. With all the money I saved I think I will order my 16" wheels and tires! Best to all of you!! Charlie '94 855 VROOOOOOOOOM!!!! '88 244 taking a week off to rest http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1374468&rss=1 Wed, 23 Sep 2009 01:22 GMT Thank you all for your responses. Here are my responses; To BLUE244, when I crank the engine over it just cranks and cranks, just like you had taken the coil wire off; no pops, nothing. The last time I cranked for 30 seconds, then again for 30 seconds more, and it did sound like the engine was speeding up. To DJ, I have a new set of copper plugs, rotor, cap and wires on the way. I have to admit that I drive very gentle, accelerate softly so the engine has not been over 3,000 RPM since I got it, I think it spins about 2,800 RPM when doing 70mph on the freeway. So the idea of putting the car in 2nd or 3rd gear and punching the accelerator is foreign to me, but I am willing to try it. Lee, this business of putting oil into the combustion chamber, does not mess up oxygen sensors or cat converters? Will Marvel Mystery Oil work? I have a little squirt gun I use to oil my pneumatic tools I could use for that. Question; what does it mean when the tach needle does not move while cranking? This seems to point again to a distributor/coil/rotor or cap, although as i said earlier, there seems to be enough of an electic impulse on the wire to make the induction timing light flash. Best to all of you Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1374252&rss=1 Tue, 22 Sep 2009 02:08 GMT Today I had the opportunity to do further testing on my non-starting 855. Here they are in sequence; 1. Charged battery 2. Checked trouble codes on A2 and A6, no problems 3. Connected fuel pressure gauge, 45 psi when switch is placed in position II 4. Put my inductive timing light on, picked a different spark plug cable, there is fire there (light flashes when cranking) 5. Cranked the engine for about 30 seconds, oil light goes off. Cranked for another 30 seconds. Engine appears to spin a little faster, but still no start. 6. checked trouble codes again, nothing 7. Pulled spark plug from cylinder #1 (?, closest to the "front" of the engine) plug is a Volvo brand 3 electrode, and it looked sooty, smells like old gas. According to the records I got, plugs are about 4 years old, 12K miles on them) 8. I was sure that the injectors are just not opening, but I disconnected the #1 injector and rigged a tiny buzzer i got at Radio Shack with a length of wires (so i could bring it inside the car and close the door). There is a definite "tic-tic-tic-tic-tic when cranking, so the injectors are actually getting some signal to open. So, I have fuel pressure, the injectors are firing, and the timing light says there is spark. Still the car will not start. The timing belt is 3 months old and the car has been running perfect since, so this is not high in the list of possibilities. Here is my next step, and i will appreciate any other help and ideas; the next suspect is spark plugs, wires and distributor cap. Although the timing light flashes, I suppose there is still the possibility that there is too much resistance in the cable, or that the plug just does not fire. This still seems wacky to me, given that the car was running and starting perfectly before I parked it to clean the EGR valve. Strange that all the wires or plugs went bad at the same time. Ohhhh wait a minute, i did remove the coil wire to open the air cleaner, and to do that I had to yank it from the little guides; that would definitely be the first suspect, and if i damaged it that would explain why none of the plugs fire. QUESTION Anyone know what the resistance should be in the 850 coil cable and plug cables? What would be a better way to check if the plugs are really firing? And a big THANK YOU Lee, i actually removed the fan and the starter again just to verify there was no loose cables anywhere and I could see those ground connectors under the manifold, fortunately everything checked OK there. Thank you again to all of you for your suggestions, I am getting closer! Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1373941&rss=1 Sun, 20 Sep 2009 23:00 GMT I am sorry Lee, I did not word my question properly. In the Volvo 240, the engine harness, which manages the injectors, and which is all controlled by the ECU, has its main ground in a bolt that is on top of the intake manifold. I was just wondering if the harness in the 850 (which would provide the ground for the ECU) has a specific location so I can make sure it is making good contact. Charlie http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1373449&rss=1 Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:56 GMT In my 240 cars there is a ground connection on top of the intake manifold which is critical for several components in the fuel injection system. Is there a similar ground connection for the injectors etc in the N/A 850 engine? Thank you Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1373144&rss=1 Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:00 GMT Thank you Lee! If the Idle Control Valve is in that circuit, then mine is working, because that thing does hummmm when the key is in position II. My fuel pump goes through the prime cycle at that time, and I am getting spark when I crank, so it looks like whatever it is that makes the injectors operate is asleep, I need to keep checking. Thank you again Charlie http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1372937&rss=1 Wed, 16 Sep 2009 21:38 GMT Hey Ozark Lee! I have a '94 850 that I tore into to clean the EGR valve last week and I have not been able to start it since. This fuel injector relay that you mention, is there a way to test it (jump between contacts)? I remember three electrical relays in that panel, but I thought all had to do with the radiator fan. What exactly does that relay do, and what happens when it fails? Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1372904&rss=1 Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:30 GMT Thank you Jadnhm, yesterday I ordered a little fuel injection pressure gauge, so in a few days I will be able to check that. The pump does go through the priming cycle when the switch is in position II, and I cannot imagine why the pump would quit working while I worked on the EGR. The car cranks as if the coil was disconnected, not even a snap, crackle or pop. But my timing light shows there is spark. That is why I think the injectors are just not opening, because if they opened or even leaked, there would be at least some pops and coughing. My motto is similar to Edison's; "I have not failed, I just have not figured out why this is not working!". Here are my next steps; 1. Disconnect the MAF sensor, crank and see if it goes in limp-home mode. My 240s all had the wire-type MAF, but this one apparently is different (It can even be cleaned!). 2. Recharge the battery 3. Check the starter; although I had never heard the car crank without starting, it seems like it cranks slow. I read somewhere that the motor has to spin above 250 rpm before there is spark and fuel (But there is spark, so this may be redundant) 4. Check the fuel pressure when I get the gauge 5. I have not been able to find anywhere what sensor triggers the spark and what sensor triggers the injectors. I suspect the crank position sensor is the one that triggers the spark, and it would make sense that the cam position sensor trigger the injectors. That would narrow the search. Worse comes to worse, I am picking up a cam sensor at the U Pull it just to be safe. I will figure it out sooner or later. Thanks to all for all your ideas. Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1372548&rss=1 Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:13 GMT I am running out of options folks. Here are further checks; Cranking voltage? Good (over 10.5V) Tach needle does not move while cranking I got excited thinking I may have damaged the wire or connection to the crank position sensor or the cam position sensor, but both seem to be untouched, Is there a way to verify those two are operating? That was my last hope, that maybe the injectors are not squirting because the ECU does not know the motor is spinning. But I do not see any apparent damage there. And after cranking a few more times, I still do not get any trouble codes on A2 or A6. This is so strange that the car was running perfect when I parked it to clean the EGR, now I have a clean and shiny EGR in a car that does not want to run!! Tell me something I am missing, because there is no more info in the Haynes manual. Thanks Charlie http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1372371&rss=1 Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:50 GMT No Klaus, I did not have a reason to disconnect plug wires. Besides the vacuum connections and electrical connections at the relay panel, the other connections that I unplugged (and now have checked to make certain they are plugged properly) are; The 2 wire connector going to the EGR valve and the vacuum line The plug at the TPsensor and 2 vacuum lines under the throttle body The plug at the air mass sensor (by the air filter) The connector to the fan motor (so i could remove the fan) I also removed the large positive connections at the starter (3 wires)and the "start" wire plug. Since the car is cranking, I am assuming these are good. I disconnected the coil wire to open the air cleaner box, but since i am getting spark, I am assuming this is good too. It took me a while to get the EGR valve out, so all in all the battery was disconnected for about a week. When I connected it and tried to crank the first time, in the position II of the switch all the lights came on, including a flashing arrow that I had not seen before. It started for a second, sputtered and died. Once I realized the TPS was disconnected and fixed that, I tried again and now the dash lights look normal, the arrow is not flashing anymore. I found some reference to the PNP switch on Bay13, but I went and checked again the transmision codes, it gave me again 2-1-3, but not the switch code. In closing, I had never heard this car crank without starting before, so I have nothing to compare, but my impression is that it cranks slow. The battery measures 12.5 volts, I did not measure the cranking voltage. I saw among the codes in the book that there is one for low battery voltage, but I am not getting that one. My reputation as the "Volvo guy" in my street would suffer a big setback if anyone sees my 855 wagon being towed to the mechanic, so I am determined to fix this one. Since it was running a week ago when I tore it up to fix the plugged up EGR, it can't be anything major ( I hope!). Charlie '94 855 sleeping beauty '88 244 i run, i run, so off to work i go! http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1372120&rss=1 Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:40 GMT Thank you Klaus. After regaining my composure today, I went and did the following; 1. Put the key in position II, there is definitely humming from the back for a couple of seconds, second time I turned the key from outside the car and ran to the front, there is definitely the "whoosh" sound of fuel flowing for a couple of seconds. 2. I connected my inductive timing light, cranked again, there is definitely spark. 3. I checked again for trouble codes in both A2 and A6, no trouble codes stored. What am I missing? In Spanish there is a proverb that applies to the Haynes manual, "that and nothing equals two nothings". My only conclusion is that the injectors are not opening. I had the bright idea that it may be some sort of antitheft mechanism, so with the remote I locked and then unlocked the car again, but unfortunately, no luck, crank, crank, crank, but no start. Sounds like another week driving the trusty 244! Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1372076&rss=1 Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:52 GMT I cleaned out the EGR valve, and for that I removed the radiator fan (disconnected all the relays), removed throttle body and starter too. Upon assembly this morning, in my rush to put it back together I neglected to connect the throttle position sensor. Connected everything else, connected the battery and tried to start the car. It coughed once and after the starter cranks and cranks but it does not even try to start. Checked the codes on A2, it gave me 4-1-1, something about TPS exceeding voltage. I cleared the code. I have gone over everything, checked all the connections but the car does not start. Any suggestions (besides not rushing when putting things back together)? Charlie '94 855 '88 244 (Thankfully it runs) http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1371815&rss=1 Sat, 12 Sep 2009 15:26 GMT My 244 sometimes takes a lot of cranking to start the engine, and when it finally does, it does not catch on fast, it seems to struggle to get going. This appears to happen more on hot days (after sitting in the parking lot at work all day). In the morning when it is cool it seems to start fine. Any suggestions on where to look? Although the starter appears to work properly, is is possible for the starter to take too much of the amps available and therefore not allow the fuel pump to build up pressure quick enough? Or is it possible for the fuel pump to be requiring more amps than it is suposed to? I have the feeling the problem is around that area. Charlie '88 244 '94 855 http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/?id=1371203&rss=1 Wed, 9 Sep 2009 21:09 GMT The pipe itself was very clean, i cleaned the port in the intake manifold and i also cleaned the EGR valve. Tested it with the hand vacuum pump, works smooth. Now it is a matter of putting it all back together on Saturday, I hope I do not end up with leftover pieces. I will report on the results. Since I have all the stuff torn apart, I am tempted to disable the air cleaner thermostat and just let her breathe cool air. Here in Memphis I don't think it will make a difference. Charlie '94 855 '88 244 http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1371196&rss=1 Wed, 9 Sep 2009 20:15 GMT Hi Icelandic, thanks a lot! I went out after dinner this afternoon and found the connection to the exhaust. That did the trick, had to bang it a couple of times with the hammer to break that seal, but it is out now. I also removed the throttle body to clean the EGR passage. No wonder it threw the 2-4-1 code, that port was choked with crud. I think I saw in another posting using a 3/8 drill bit, that worked well to clean the port. IMHO, Volvo should have put that EGR port on one side or on top, that way it would not end up filling with oily stuff that gets carbonized with the exhaust gas. Thank you again. Charlie http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1371031&rss=1 Wed, 9 Sep 2009 01:59 GMT Anyone has some advice on loosening the pipe connected to the EGR valve? I have gotten everything else out of the way, removed the 22mm nut but the valve is stuck to the pipe. Thanks! Charlie '94 855 (newfound love) '88 244 (cannot give up old love) '53 Chevy pickup rod (teenage love) http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1370778&rss=1 Tue, 8 Sep 2009 00:11 GMT Thank you Klaus, it is a 241 code "EGR flow too low in system". Following the Haynes Manual, I took out the relay panel, the electric fan, the starter, I removed the nut from the exhaust tube connection and the two bolts that fix the EGR valve. Everything went as expected (2 - 3 busted knuckles) but i could not separate the EGR valve from the tube in the back. I gave it a shot of WD40, closed the hood and went back in the house to rest. I hope I did not do all this work in vain, but I will appreciate any feedback and ideas on how to fix the fault code 241. Thank you Charlie '94 855 '88 244 5 speed (Thank God it runs good) http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1370705&rss=1 Mon, 7 Sep 2009 19:51 GMT Klaus, You are the man of the hour! The procedures on Bay 13 only listed the procedures for sockets 1, 2 and 3. I sort of got the impression that I was missing something. Where can I find the other procedures (and what the codes would mean). My only other time around that area was to reset the "service" light a few months ago, but this is the first time I get one of the "trouble" lights on. Thanks so much for your help. Charlie '94 855 '88 244 5 speed formerly '85 245 5 speed http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1370195&rss=1 Fri, 4 Sep 2009 19:10 GMT The dreaded "Check Engine" light came on yesterday in my wagon. First time for me doing this, i used the Bay 13 procedures for checking codes, i got 1-1-1 for both engine and transmision. I did the procedure to clear any trouble codes out. I also had the ABS procedure, so i checked that and got 213 and 214. I cleared the codes there as well. I go sit on the car, turn on the engine and now I have both the "check engine" and "ABS" lights on. I do the procedure again, using the A1, A2 and A3 sockets, only get 1-1-1, but both lights continue to be on as if there is a problem. One odd thing i noticed in the engine compartment (while key was in the II position) was a buzzing sound coming from the area where the throttle body is located. Any suggestions?? http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1370186&rss=1 Fri, 4 Sep 2009 18:19 GMT Thank you Klaus! On my drive to work today I turned off my headlights (i keep them on all the time) and AC/fan, and pleasant surprise, switch is cool as a cucumber. I know there is a bulb that illuminates the ignition switch when i first get in the car, but does that not turn off when all the interior lights turn off? I honestly have not paid attention. I will use the AC/fan this afternoon (it gets hot here in Memphis) and check if that ignition light stays on. Best regards, Charlie '94 855 '88 244 '53 Chevy pickup all in pieces!! http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1368683&rss=1 Fri, 28 Aug 2009 14:28 GMT I have had my 850 wagon for about 9 months now and I love it! Today when i got back from work, shut down the wagon and pulled out the key, it felt hot. I touched the outside of the ignition switch and it was VERY hot. I have not noticed any trouble lights or anything, the car runs real well but obviously i have a voltage drop of some sort in the switch. I thought these cars used relays for any circuit that pulls a large amount of current, so where do i look? tomorrow i will not use the AC or the fan and i will see what happens. Any other suggestions would be very welcome! Charlie '94 855 '88 244 '53 Chevy pickup!! http://www.brickboard.com/AWD/?id=1368600&rss=1 Fri, 28 Aug 2009 01:13 GMT Hi Tony, Last year the idler pulley seized and tore the belt. The car ended up in the shop and they put a new belt, but I did not feel a difference. I may still pull the cover off to make sure everything is lined up properly. Charlie http://www.brickboard.com/RWD/?id=1363895&rss=1 Tue, 4 Aug 2009 16:59 GMT Use the text input below to search brickboard.com query http://www.brickboard.com/FIND/