Volvo RWD 200 Forum
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SAVE 240 Rotor Identification 200
posted by BlueGoose on Tue Jun 30 18:24 CST 2009
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last visit: Sun Nov 22 05:05 CST 2009[RELATED]I just installed a set of front vented brake discs for Girling calipers, Volvo brand from the Volvo dealer. I measure 1 5/8" or maybe 1 11/16" from the surface to the top of the hat.
But I don't know what the hat height has much to do with the caliper not fitting over the disc, within reason of course.
How come the caliper won't fit onto the disc? Is that no pads or with pads? What year is your 240?
--
1986 Volvo 245
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SAVE 240 Rotor Identification 200
posted by David Samuels on Tue Jun 30 21:10 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:19 CST 2009[RELATED]Ay, well there's the rub--literally. The hat height on the discs I have is 1 5/8 or so. When in place, the lower hat height means the disc itself is further away from the backplate. With no pads in the calipers, you can locate them over the discs and get the caliper bolts started. However once the bolts start to cinch down and the caliper straightens out, the outer edge of the caliper cavity strikes the disc outer surface and you cannot continue. The "correct" discs, purchased today, are about 1 13/16 hat height. Only about 3/16" difference, maybe less. I use the various parts houses, including FCPG to help me in situations like this. What I don't understand is that they list the same calipers, rotors for all years, as does my local supplier and also autopartswarehouse.com. So, if your 86 takes the 1 5/8 hat and the 91 takes
1 13/16, how can they be the same part? Curiouser and curiouser. Anybody with an 88 or pre-86 want to weigh in?
DS
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posted by machine man on Wed Jul 1 10:01 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:25 CST 2009[RELATED]I'm just curious too!
By any chance, could it be the your outer race of the bearings are not seated all the way into the disk? The rear bearing would cause it to set out too far. You only need half of that back to be centered.
Phil
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posted by David Samuels on Wed Jul 1 10:30 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:19 CST 2009[RELATED]I considered that, but as part of this whole front end re-doux I replaced the front bearings so I know they are installed correctly. I first noticed this situation about six months ago. I upgraded our '83 coupe to vented front discs. One of the reasons for doing this was because I knew I had discs on hand and picked up a set of clean calipers from a friend for a song. Surprise! Had to go out and buy discs. Thus my query about others' experiences, and hopefully measurments, on cars earlier than 86. The discs on the '83 measure 1 13/16 hat height too, I just stuck my tape measure through the alloys and measured. I'm starting to think I should move this post over to the 140-160 forum and see if I can get some input there. No word from Brembo yet.
Thanks Phil,
DS
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posted by machine man on Wed Jul 1 20:11 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:25 CST 2009[RELATED]I have a '78, '84,'86 & '91. They have Girling's on all. I have not noticed outside changes in the rotors except a yard. Then those are non-vented on the older cars.
Now with that said. That leaves that the dimensions inside could differ with spindle design changes. Spindle nuts are different. I know bearing numbers differ when the races and cones that come as a set.
The '91's are different than the '86. The internals races are thicker or thinner and the location of the taper might move. I'll have to watch next time I do a spindle/brake service. I'll have to take pictures from car to car.
Maybe its that you have newer rotors that are suppose to use different bearings.
I really feel that the hat height only effects the offset of the rim away from the calipers.
The calipers mount to a back plate. The dimension from the rear shoulder of the spindle to the back plate locates the bearing. The shoulder inside the rotor to the back side of the disc should be compared.
I just think something on the inside has shifted. That's about all I can figure from my point.
If I were Brembo. I would say those things to you. May be they have a fact sheet they can furnish within their models. That define some caution upon using their products for similar reasons.
Good luck and tell us what the outcome is.
Phil
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posted by David Samuels on Wed Jul 1 20:41 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:19 CST 2009[RELATED]It's a tough one. Here's what I've looked into today: Bearings are the same from 81-93, so that's not it. One earlier poster confirmed that his 86 uses the shorter height hats, 1 5/8". Calipers for all the vented rotors are the same from 81 up according to FCPG. No one seems to sell hubs, so I could not check that. I suspect the difference may be there. I don't think the spindle/strut unit changes. The hat height won't affect wheel offset unless the top of the hat is thicker. It's the position of the lug bolt flange that dictates where the top of the hat sits. Think of it going backwards. For some reason, if what the 1 5/8 poster said is true (that his hat is shorter like the oddball discs I have) the flange position is further in toward the backplate, allowing for the shorter hat to locate the disc comfortably inside the rotor (on the 86 he mentioned). If Volvo did go to a taller hub, then a taller hat would be required to get the disc back to the original spot. Maybe they wanted a larger grease cavity? Maybe they were indeed widening the track a little?
DS
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posted by machine man on Wed Jul 1 22:52 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:25 CST 2009[RELATED]I guess I got to think backwards all right. I don't wear hats well and now I know why.
I dug up my spare used ventilated disc rotor.
You are describing the disc rotor as a hat. On the inside of the hat. The distance from the back side of the rotor to the back side of the bolt hole flange of the rotor which locates on the spindle face that the studs are located in. I get 2.400 inches. Plus .260 for flange thickness. Overall 2.665 inches.
From the outside top of the hat. The bolt hole flange top surface to the disc is about 1 3/4 inches. If you add the allowed turned thickness of .800 plus to the disc should be the overall height of around 2.665 inches.
I once had a rotor turned and the fool did not locate the inside back flange flat on the brake machines face. I figure he used a cone adapter. I got the rotor back running out more than I had before. I took it back and they lied. That it ran fine. Boy was I hot!
Then, I wanted them to check the depth from that inside flange surface to the turned surface with a parallel bar and depth mike right there on the counter cause they would not let me see it on the machine.
They sighted insurance reasons! I said to myself. Self, your not ever going to let some one else do another!
I took it home to my marginal sized lathe. I had to face the inside or that bolt flange true to their parallel faces. It didn't take that much because that face actually wobbles less when compared to the larger outer diameter faces. I saved the rotor that they were refusing to admit they should buy. They knew if they cut the disc faces again it would be under minimum allowed.
Brake lathes to a better job because they are dedicated for that purpose of parallel cutting. Because, I was able to rework that inside surface I didn't waste my money. If I ever have another one done I'm taking micrometers and parallels and checking it on the spot!
My suggestion would compare the above dimensions and determine what is locating what. Spindle nose stud surface or rotor inside surface. All in relation to the caliper bolting surface to find where you can get movement.
I feel you got an inferior rotor or the rear bearing of the spindle that didn't get seated all the way in. It takes some straight on push to set them all the way. I always check the back side with a mirror.
It's got be something?
Anyways, I shared my story so it might help with your frustrations.
Phil
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posted by David Samuels on Wed Jul 1 23:35 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:19 CST 2009[RELATED]The 1.75 dimension is right there (close enough) as are the other dimensions, to the taller disc. This may have to wait for my next junkyard run. I'm going to have to take a caliper and do some measuring of the various parts disassembled.
DS
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posted by David Samuels on Sun Jul 5 17:46 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:19 CST 2009[RELATED]For anyone still curious, I posted a copy of the original query on the 140/160 forum. Someone responded that Brembo's site includes a search function of their catalog by dimensions. Thus, this afternoon, with the wind howling, I have one of the offending steel donuts on my desk. Here's what I've learned: All 240 discs are 263mm diameter, thus I've left that column out. Also, only vented apps listed. All of this is 240.
Year****Disc Thickness****Overall Thickness****Brembo #****Caliper Type
To 7/75********24****************64.3***************25226*********ATE
To 7/75********22****************67.3***************25242*********Girling
8/75-87********22****************67.3***************25242*********No Spec
88-93**********22****************67.3***************25242*********No Spec
Here are my conclusions: First, "No Spec", I must assume that only Girling was available, and this appears to be for all of North America including Canada. I'm willing to buy that. In twenty years of junkyarding for 240s, I've yet to find ATE front calipers. A few months ago I stumbled on a '75 245, but did not look at brakes.
3mm of extra total thickness (67.3) and the lessened disc thickness (22) equates to 1.783" in hat height--which is what a couple of us measure on our later cars. I have no explanation for the one poster's short hat height on a later car--that's a puzzler.
My rotors are for 1975 ATE cars. Looks like only the Bertones may have had these as they came with vented discs. Curses on the E-bay vendor and shame on me for not having checked more carefully before buying!
DS
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SAVE 240 Rotor Identification 200
posted by David Samuels on Tue Jun 30 15:15 CST 2009
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last visit: Sat Nov 21 13:19 CST 2009[RELATED]As far as I know, all US 240s had Girling front, ATE rear. However some obviously had ATE fronts, as they are referenced in the Haynes manuals. Maybe only European markets, who knows?
I've been over the discs several times. The only numbers (other than the turning specs) are "..1337" on one set and "0295 B BB" on the Brembos. I wonder if I should try to contact Brembo and see if they can help.
DS
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posted by porkface on Tue Jun 30 14:02 CST 2009
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last visit: Thu Nov 19 17:28 CST 2009[RELATED]they COULD be ates. i've seen 1 ft ate car, a 76 262-not a bertone-had ates ft and rr. at the dealer, we stocked ate stuff, but i only remember ates on the 160s. the ate-girling thing is not related to any 1 market that i've seen, just how the car was built when it was new. and yes, that 76 262 was a u.s. market car, not some import from some other market. if they are oe volvo, there's a part number on them, usually on the side of the hat where the specs are. on the question of fit, i assume the old and new rotors are the same, vented or non-vented. good luck, chuck.
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posted by
lucid
on
Tue Jun 30 12:54 CST 2009
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last visit: Sun Nov 22 06:19 CST 2009[RELATED]
They could be ATE fronts for a 164.
Should be a part # stamped somewhere.
--
Bruce Young, '93 940-NA (current), 240s (one V8), 140s, 122s, since '63.
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posted by Stickbuilder on Tue Jun 30 12:19 CST 2009
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last visit: Sun Nov 22 04:09 CST 2009[RELATED]I might be mis-informed, but so far as I have been told, and read, all 200 series Volvo cars and wagons used Girling fronts. The rears may be either Girling or ATE. My 85 uses Girling fronts with Brembo rotors (solid) and ATE rears.
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