Volvo RWD 200 Forum

It seems to me Volvos 240s are build like tanks also,The b23/b21 engines last forever ,also the transmissions last as long.Having 4 of them, 1989 249 with 289000,run like an clock ,1993 940 turbo same engine as 1993 240,it had 140000,run good unto hose busted and overheated,1984 240 with 240000,got hit at an bus stop,also ran good.Just got an 83 300d it 5 inline turbo diesel, with 223000om it,Always want one.As a long haul truck driver diesels are not new to me.

Outofworkjoe,

Well, you asked, so I’ll answer. I may bore the crap out of most of the Volvo owners, but they don’t have to read it.

In my opinion, the 617 Benz engine will outlast the B-series Volvo, and is more reliable while it does it. No computer, no AMM, no TPS, no O2 sensor, none of that. I have never heard of anyone wearing one out. Most of the time they are killed by a loss of oil or coolant.

As far as the rest of the car is concerned my 740s and 940 feel a bit light duty compared to the Benz. I know the Volvo has a reputation for safety, but the Volvo doors sure feel tinny compared to the Benz. All of the little things that drive you crazy on any old car are about equal between the two cars, except that most Volvos don’t have the stupid climate control.

Don’t get me wrong, I love and respect my Volvos, and I think the B230 is about the best gas burner going. And because all of my Volvos (after the 544s and 122s) have been wagons, I sure do love being able to stretch out for a good night’s sleep when I’m on the road. And I love what I can pack in my Volvo wagons.

Please do not construe anything I say about Benz to have anything to do with any Benz other than a 123 or 126 chassis with a 617 series diesel engine. Benz has made their share of stinkers, some of which could almost rival the V-6 PRV engine that appeared in some Volvos.

I was an over-the-road owner/operator for years (still have my 66 Autocar), so we share the comfort of sitting behind a diesel. The 617 Benz engine will feel a lot like your truck engine. Fire it up, drive it all day and all night, and it will never miss a beat. Get up the next day and do it again. They are rock solid. If you got a good one, you will love it. If you got an abused one, you might be sorry. If you don’t do your own work, an 83 Benz is not a good choice because it will probably cost you more than a Volvo to have it repaired. If you do your own work, they are pretty much equivalent.

I’m on my second 1983 300SD (the larger 126 chassis, but the same running gear as your 123 chassis) and I will swear by them for durability and reliability. I bought the first one with 187k miles on it, and sold it 5 or 6 years ago with 317k on it to a friend of mine who is still driving it. The only reason I sold it was the leather was getting ragged on the front seats and I found another 83 300SD with Benztex seats and only 117k miles on it. The second one now has 213k miles on it.

So, I have put in about 225k miles behind the wheel on the two. I’ve driven them many times from Kentucky to California, Colorado, the east coast, and Florida, and they have been my daily drivers locally as well. In all those miles, they have never seen the back side of a wrecker or been hooked to a chain to get them home. They simply never quit. I’m not saying I never had things to fix, just that they never quit.

When I got my current one, I had to play catch up for some previous neglect before I put it on the road, but all minor stuff. Since then I have done 96k miles with nothing but brake work, filters, oil, valve adjustments, trans fluid changes, and a B-2 piston change in the trans. Oh, and I fixed the stupid HVAC system about 4 times.

I have never pulled a head off one, though I did put a timing chain on one as preventive maintenance. If I had been smart enough to check the chain stretch, I might not have needed it.

If you have climate control, which you probably do, it is a lousy system. If yours is working now, you might want to find the coolant pump for the heater and pull the wires off of it. If the pump seizes it will fry tracks in the circuit board of the dashboard control unit. You can patch them with solder and thin copper wire.

Pull out all of your fuses, clean the contacts in the fuse box, and put in all new fuses. DO NOT inspect your old fuses to see if they look good. Replace them all. Keep the old ones for spares.

Unless you know that the B-2 piston in the trans has been replaced with the newer design, you might want to buy one to keep on hand. It is installed with the trans still in the car from the outside of the trans, but I think it is close quarters on the 123 chassis. A nearly instant failure to go forward from a dead stop will alert you to the problem. You might not know it failed until you try to leave the house the next day. It will still go in reverse, and will pull forward with no problem if you roll it off a hill until you get to 10 or 20 mph. If your trans has a big time delay between putting it in D or R and feeling the engagement, that is not good news. I don’t think the trans in the Benz is as good as the trans in the Volvo. They often require a rebuild at about a quarter million miles. If you don’t have the delay, you are probably good.

When you change the trans fluid, you don’t have to screw around with flushing it. There is a drain plug in the torque converter. Also pull the trans pan and replace the filter because it has a real filter and not just a screen.

Be aware that there is a power steering fluid filter in the pump under the fluid level. I had my first one for years before I found out it had one.

Don’t let people scare you about prices for Benz parts. They aren’t that bad, though they are not as plentiful in junkyards. The thing that often makes Benz parts affordable is that they sell the individual part that breaks instead of the entire assembly. For example, I smacked my glove box door shut when it was too full, and the catch inside the release mechanism broke. I figured I would have to buy the entire latch, but I was able to buy just the part inside the latch that broke, so it was only about $2.50 from the dealer to fix it. However, I hear the parts prices from the dealers have gone up in the last 4 or 5 years. I haven’t had to buy much other than filters for the last 5 years, so I don’t know for sure.

Take a look at the boots on CV joints of the rear axels. If they look all cracked and rotted in the crevices, but are not leaking, LEAVE THEM ALONE. They can look like that for 10 years and never leak.

So, for now I own both a 1995 945 Volvo and a 1983 300SD Benz. Part of the plan is to be able to switch between the two as the gas/diesel prices swap places. I like them both.

Good luck with it,
Charley

Charley,

Did MB find out about the virtues of galvanized steel between 79 and 83, or don't they use road salt in Kentucky? I must concur with you about the heating/cooling system, truly over engineered!

No hurt feelings on my end!

jorrell
--
92 245 278K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!

jorrell,

Actually, they love salt in KY. Some years I could swear we have more inches of salt than snow. The first 300SD that I had (the one I sold to a friend) does not have any significant rust. My current one is showing signs of rust and, if I don't do something about it, it will probably be shot in about 5 years. But, they are 26 years old. The first one was originally from KY and the second one was from Pittsburgh, PA.

The second one sat for about three years before I bought it, and I suspect that it was parked outside in the winter when they quit using it, so it didn't have a chance for the spring rains to clean the salt off of it.

The other contributing factors are the design. The 123 chassis (like the pre-86 300D) tended to rust more than the 126 chassis 300SD. The SD uses a lot more plastic down low, which is were the 123 tended to rust most. I think the design change is similar to the way a 240 seems to be more rust prone than the 740/940. I don't know if the design change between the 123 and 126, or for the earlier chassis you had, included galvanized or not.

Charley

i will take a 75 volvo 240 over any benz any day. the diesels are ok but as they age, benzs get exspensive. replace the axles in 1. or the upper, yes, they are there, and lower ball joints. only thing RIGHT NOW, is diesel is cheaper than gas. at least here in orlando. the 123's have a complicated vacuum system for everything. door locks and ac. you HAVE to adjust the valves on an mb diesel every 15k. done a bunch, too many to count. gonna do another this week. volvos? they used to say 15k. in all the b21s, etc., i've worked on, i've done 3 actual adjustments. 1 was a cam change, another was a burnt valve from old age. the 3rd was mine after i pulled the head and the machine shop overdid the valves. pound for pound, dollar for dollar, the 240 volvo is cheaper than the benz you bought. good luck, chuck.

Here in Australia (where we don't generally have a rust-prone climate) the W123 benzes I see in the junk yard generally have more severe and extensive rust than any of the older volvo models. I have never owned a benz, so i can't personally comment on reliability etc, but judging by what i see at the PNP's W123 and W116 MB's do not hold up as well as volvo when it comes to rust. Sure the old 144 and 244's I see are rusty too, but it is usually just surface stuff while the MB's have serious holes etc.
A good way of finding out more about them is to have a look at the MB forums,like benzworld and topklasse.
If you ever look at one, check around the door seals (especially at lower door seals)and boot seals, under the carpet, and anywhere near the firewall for rust- these are the spots thats seem to be rusty on virtually all of them.
--
'89 245 'Haga', '77 244 DL

I will add my Mercedes experience here although they are based on a smooth riding 79 280SE gas burner in 1990, ie. 11 years old with roughly 130K miles. The first wonderful experience started with the driver side interior flooding after it rained, quickly followed by complete and total electrical failure with a flamed out wiring harness. What happened? Simple, the sound deadening applied to the outside top of the firewall collected rain water which allowed the firewall to rust out and the fuse box to break loose!

So, a few custom made sheetmetal patch panels followed by copious quantities of fiberglass and the firewall was whole again. After that, it was two weeks of making a new wiring harness one wire at a time. A replacement harness was out of the question at $4000! So that disaster was averted.

Two weeks later, had a flat right front tire, used the factory jack along side the road by inserting it into the jack hole in the rocker panel. It was going great until I had the wheel off, the rocker panel crushed due to invisible internal rust, and the jack ripped through the rocker panel and driver side front door as the car crashed to the ground! Damage was repaired with a new used door, front half of the passenger side rocker panel, fender repair, and replacement of the sheetmetal valence under the front bumper. After paint, that was a $2300 disaster!

Things were going well after that for about six months, then the head gasket let loose and coated everything in the engine compartment with oil. Remove head, replace head gasket, timing chain, timing chain guides and a bunch of other seals and gaskets, she didn't abuse me too bad that time, I did the labor and the parts "only" cost $1200!

After a few more months, the heater control assembly on the passenger side firewall failed, $500 aftermarket... what an overdesigned piece of poo that even had an electric pump in it so you can stay nice and cozy while at idle!

This was shortly followed by another insult, a vacuum diaphragm ($24) for the ventilation system failed. Sure, $24 doesn't seem bad, but by the Benz book the entire dash had to come out to replace it, that's 40 hours labor out, and 40 hours back in! I devised a chainsaw method to correct this error but I was up to my eyeballs and seeing red at that point!

Finally, the vacuum door lock system failed due to another bad diaphragm, see a pattern? Rust failure, rust failure, gasket failure, vacuum failure, and a few more electrical and injection failures I didn't even mention! The smoking driver seat motor... I was almost hopeful she'd burn to the ground, but alas the fuse blew!

Note that I got a good deal on the car when I bought it, it even had full dealership records from day one! I actually sold the car for more than I paid for it originally, but none the less, I lost my arse on that car! Six months later, I got a call from the new owner, who was quite upset that the auto trans disemboweled itself on the freeway, I felt bad for their conundrum, but like me, they fell for the Benz "star"!

Give me Swedish iron any day! And I do realize that Volvos of the same vintage had significant rust issues as well, but dang, virtually every system in that Benz was failing day by day!

jorrell




--
92 245 278K miles, IPD'd to the hilt, 06 XC70, 00 Eclipse custom Turbo setup...currently taking names and kicking reputations!

Even if you do the work yourself you will find parts hard to find at a reasonable price unlike the 240.
Dan

I think I'll go ahead and open up a can of worms here. I don't think an average 240 will last as long as an average 300d, and here's why; the diesel is built heavier than the gas engine (it has to be to survive, obviously) and the lubricating properties of the fuel help a lot to keep all of the parts moving smoothly. That being said, I've got 393k on my highest mileage 245, and it still seems to run OK. Certainly maintenance, geographic location, and a bit of luck figure in to the equation as well.

Had a 142 and a 245.
I then switched to a W116 (240D)
then a W123 (240D)
a C126 (380 SEC)(beautiful car, but far too complex!)
another W123 (240D)
850
and finally a 1977 242 with 66,000 miles.

The 300D is subject to a casting crack near the #5 cylinder
and that problem can be masked by the turbo. The 240D uses
the European climate control system, the 300D uses the gen.
1 & gen. 2 Chrysler system. The gen. 1 system is made by
Chrysler and is about to break. The gen. 2 is identical to
the gen. 1, the only difference is that it has already broken.
Very, very expensive.

My opinion is that the old Volvo ('93 & older bricks) will last
as long as the 240D, and possibly longer than a 300D. The critical
factor is maintenance.

My 240D with a new factory engine got in a wreck. Found a donor
with 116,000 miles, but the engine was destroyed. Turns out the
entire car was wasted. From what I gather, Mom, & Dad bought the
car new when the baby was born. When the baby turned 16 they gave
him the 240D. In short order he absolutely destroyed the car.
Just like any other car they must be maintained and not abused.
That kid broke everything! It was totally hammered! That kid broke
things on that car that just could not be broken!

I had a five year old 142. Loved that car, but had to have a Porsche.
Hated the Porsche, and then really upgraded to a BMW (BIGGER MISTAKE!)
Is that "Bring More Water", or "Bad Motoren Werken"? Ever paid $1,600
for what you thought was a routine oil change. Don't ask....

I just bought the '77 242 last month. In my opinion, there is no
finer car than the '72 - '77 Brick.
BTW...the '95 850 is for sale. Very nice car, but could it ever compare
to the Bricks?

The 300D is easy to work on, the 240D even easier, but a monkey could
work on the old Volvos. Now if the 242 just came with a diesel, had
a five speed with an electric overdrive (6 speeds total), Recaros, racing
harness, rear headrests, bypass filter, pre oiler, pre heater....

-Rick

I've owned both, I'll say the 300 is a "better" car as in more bells and whistles but the early productions years had problems too. The 240 may be a tad less robust but I think given the less bells a whistles the less there was to go wrong, plus there were many more 240 sold so used parts are easier to get. Lastly the car is easier to work on which would explain why there are more 240s still on the road.

I think the ease and cost of maintenance is a big plus on the Volvo's side. The 300D might be built a little better, but when it breaks down it's going to hurt your wallet more.

A guy I know had a 300D and had nothing but problems with it. So he ditched it and bought a 700 series Volvo. And had problem after problem with it. I think he was just cursed.
--
'63 PV544 rat rod, '93 Classic #1141 245 +t

Just like any other car if not maintain or up kept,it will cause you money.I do love the older Volvo's,I also like the older benzs.I pick the 83 because the of durability of 3.0L 5CYC inline turbo Diesel,no spark plugs,no cap,no rotor,wires, and no computer,has steel timing chain,mech fuel pump,Cast Iron engine,I just change the oil,7qts the oil filter is mounted on the firewall,takes 15/40wt truck oil.Replaced 2 fuel filters main and second/air filter,tune up.I see alot of parts on the net.Just a dum diesel,will run off veggie oil,engine oil,no2 home heating oil,bio diesel.Thinking about running veggie soon.

I have owned Volvo 544, 240,740 and V70. Mercedes 190d, 220b,250sec,300d,and 300E. To me there is really no comparison. The Benzs had far fewer problems and maintained their structural integrity (ie, body, interior, and suspension) far better than the Volvos.

I knew I was opening up a can of worms when I made my declaration...there are sure a bunch of variables, most of which we don't have much control over. I think previous maintenance history is important, but does it weigh in as much as a car that came from a section of the country that heavily salts the roads? I don't know. I do know that Benz has had some awful cars (350 sd and sdl) and some great cars, (190 and 300d, for instance). I like the relative affordability (term loosely applied) of Volvo parts, especially used Volvo parts, especially when compared to full freight dealership Benz prices! I'll stick with my 1986 300SDL until it eats me out of house and home, (which it hasn't yet) and enjoy all the comfort and room and 27mpg, too. I'll also keep my other 2 245s, a 220, a 130, and maybe the 850T because they are fun cars to have, for different reasons. Long live both brands, although I fear that both have suffered build quality issues over the last decade or so.

I've never owned a Benz but I know people who have. Yeah the old ones are tough but when something breaks it's either made of unobtanium or isn't but priced like it is.

I'd love a W123 240d manual in pristine condition and I keep hoping my friend with the '69 220d (with 4-on-the-tree manual!) will sell it to me when I have too much money and a nice shop to work on it, next to my 244 that is, but that day's looking further away all the time.