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Volvo's Turbo+ Kit[ALL/1998] posted by Bob Ziegler on
Thursday, 23 October 1997, at 10:07 p.m.
I am considering purchasing Volvo's Turbo+ kit for my 1990 765 Turbo. I would appreciate info from anyone who has experience with this. Is it really worth $750? Volvo claims 25 extra hp by a boost increase to 13psi. Sounds good! Has anyone tried it?
Re: Volvo's Turbo+ Kit[ALL/1998] posted by Steve Seekins on
Friday, 24 October 1997, at 7:33 a.m.
I have the turbo + kit installed in my 90 745 turbo with M46 tranny. You will find that the turbo + will not make a lot of difference until you geet into the higher rpm ranges on your engine. Once in the 3,000 to 5,000 rpm range, at full throttle, you will get a fair amount of additional power. However, you will need to do a couple of other things. Make sure that your throttle body is absolutely clean, Install a free-flow permanent, washable, oiled air filter like AMSOIL or K&N - the kind that goes inside the filter box. COnsider removing the filter box and removing the horn inside that goes into the fender - it creates some intake flow restriction.
Inspect the throttle body - remove the intake hose and use inspection mirror and good light - have someone depress the throttle all the way inside the car. Observe that the cable pulley on the linkage gose full from the idle stop to the full throytle stop - if not, adjust the cable accordingly. Then obsere that the throttle plate in the throttle body opens fully - it should be EXACTLY parallel with the bore. If it does not open fully (a common problem) you will not get full flow through it, and your power will be greatly restricted at full boost. To correct this problem, disconnect the link rod from the throttle plate lever (unsnap the plastic lock, then pry off the ball socket gently). Then use pliers to slightly bend the lever arm AWAY from the throttl body.; This will effectively shorten the lever arm and allow more rotation of the throttle plate for the same amount of travel of the link rod. Re-attach and check again. It doesn't take much bending to effect a change inside, so bend only little bit at a time.
If you make any changes to the throttle body settings - including bending the lever arm, perform a complete 'base idle adjustment' according to the manual procedures and reset the throttle switch. Otherwise your constant idle system may not work properly.
Be sure to use premium gas and consider regular use of fuel additive such as the AMSOIL PI with each tank. Any tendency to knock will retard timing and limit any gains that the + kit might give you and the additive will keep injectors and fuel system clean and working better. Makes a big difference in those areas that have 'oxygenated' or 'reformulated' gas.
Steve Seekins
Tech Editor, Rolling magazine
Volvo Club of America
Re: Volvo's Turbo+ Kit[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Friday, 24 October 1997, at 8:29 a.m.
Hi Steve....re the above procedure, is it the same for my 850 turbo? Is it something which should be done, ie throttle body inspected for full open-ability, on a 17,000 mi 850 turbo? Thanks.
Re: Volvo's Turbo+ Kit[ALL/1998] posted by Steve Seekins on
Friday, 24 October 1997, at 9:06 a.m.
I am not aware of problems with the 850 throttle bodies not opening fully - they I think they use a different arrangement with the long intake runners and all. Though, I suppose it wouldn't hurt to take a look - especially if you are pushing the limits with custom programming chips, etc.
However, I always check on 240 and 700, especially turbos. Since everything is goverened by the AMM, anything that will restrict the air flow will also restrict the fuel. And if boost climbs too much for the air and fuel being pumped in, pinging can result which will cause the ignition to back off the timing. I can readily see this limit on my 90 745 - get much more boost with 94 octane gas AND cool morning than on a hot day or with 92/93 octane gas.
I also note that the engine power/torque drops significantly above 5200 rpm - must be time for a different cam!
Steve
Volvo Club of America
Re: Volvo's Turbo+ Kit[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Saturday, 25 October 1997, at 5:11 p.m.
One other point to remember, and NOT just on turbo cars. The knock sensor is fastened to the block by a single bolt through the center of the sensor. This bolt provides the preload necessary for correct knock sensor operation. I have seen MANY of these tightened too tightly. What this does is makes the knock sensor more sensitive to pinging and will send the signal to the ignition c/u to retard timing. Torquing this bolt to about 8 to 10lb/ft will give optimum but correct knock regulation. I check this on every major service I do. It takes about 30 seconds and can make a huge difference.
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Dave Stevens on
Sunday, 26 October 1997, at 4:35 a.m.
Often wondered whether knock sensor torque was important, but no one would ever say much. Your suggestion got me digging into the Haynes manual. I note that they specify 8 ft-lbs using "thread locking compound". I presume this really helps hold things because 8 ft-lbs ain't much torque. Also, I'm guessing that there could be a difference if done on a warm rather than cold engine.
I've always suspected my knock sensor was too sensitive. Evere since the first major tune up at the dealer I had to go up two grades in gas and no one could explain why. Now I'm guessing they tightened it with an air gun (joke) like they do my wheel nuts (no joke -that really ticks me when I get a flat on a rainy night).
Thanks Mark, I'll bet this will help.
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Duane on
Sunday, 26 October 1997, at 8:36 a.m.
Knock sensor torque is important if you do not want to damage the sensor.
Going up two grades of fuel after a tune up is not necessary. The dealer did something wrong. If they cannot explain it then there is something wrong with the mechanics they have working for them.
Pinging is caused by fuel igniting too soon. Why too soon is the challenge.
1. Base timing set too far advanced.
2. Knock sensor faulty. Even new ones can be bad before installation.
3. Fuel air mixture to lean.
4. Bad distributor advance controls.
a. mechanical advance weights if dist has them.
b. faulty control module.
5. Wires for temp guae sensor and knock sensor exchanged. (Volvo service manual)
The best part is that none of this you should have to check. Since the car runs worse after you had it worked on and a tune up is supposed to make it run better. Contact the dealer, make an appointment to have the car looked at again, stop buying the expensive fuel, fill up with the grde you normally use and have the dealer return the car in a like condition before he worked on it.
They screwed up your normally running auto and should fix it at no cost to you.
A mention about the Better Business Bureau or a state sponsored mediation program may help your cause. Look into them.
Duane
83 245 DL LH 2.0 M46wOD 153xxx
85 245 GL LH 2.2 AW71 116xxx
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Joseph Kmiec on
Sunday, 26 October 1997, at 11:46 a.m.
Correction,
There are three types of secsors B, C & D.
B -used on EZ-102K, EZ-117K, EZ-118K from '85 - '86
C -used on EZ-116K EZ-117K, EZ-118K from '87-on; REX-1 from '89-on
D -used on EZ-115K (on B280)
From Volvo manula, sensor type C and D have torque 11-18ft.lb
Sensor type B is more sensitive and was discontinued in 1986.
Sensor type B is fully interchangeable with type C
Josep Kmiec
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Sunday, 26 October 1997, at 4:07 p.m.
Torque yours to whatever you like. I have had countless success with them torqued to the lower values. I've never had a problem with one being under-torqued but have with them over-torqued. The torque applies preload to the piezo-quartz crystal inside the sensor. The tighter the bolt, the more the c/u is told to retart the timing.
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Dave Stevens on
Monday, 27 October 1997, at 1:16 p.m.
I've now re-torqued the knock sensor to 8 ft-lbs (cold) with a little Loctite to keep it that way. It was hard to tell, but I figured it had been on at about 25 ft-lbs (not outrageously tight in my opinion).
From the construction of the knock sensor, it's unclear to me that torquing the sensor body would compress the quartz (it's a pretty sturdy shell). I tried to see if I could get some measurable volts out of the sensor when I torqued it down hard. My digital meter flickered a bit, but it was hard to distinguish between that and touching the alligator clips so I would say my test was inconclusive.
If anyone out there has nothing better to do, it would be interesting to put Ed's theory to the test. Put a scope on the knock sensor and tap it when torqued lightly (10), medium (20) and hard (30) to see if there is any visual response difference.
A quick road test indicated some possible improvement after a few minutes of driving, but then the car always seems to run better after the hood has been opened. I understand the EZ-K advance/retard is an adaptive process (someone once told me over the last 16 starts), so time will soon tell if this continues to improve or is my imagination.
At the moment my conclusion would be that you certainly don't want a loose knock sensor and you certainly don't want to flatten it or strip the threads, but if I had to pick between a light torque and a heavy it would be light (8-10 as Ed suggests). However, if you're going to torque it light then you leave it more susceptible to loosening over time so you've either got to do the Loctite number or else re-torque it frequently.
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Monday, 27 October 1997, at 10:23 p.m.
Hey Dave,
25lb/ft. is awfully tight for a knock sensor bolt. You should notice a difference.... just how big only time will tell.
In a school, we took a sensor and put it in a vise. Hooked up a volt meter (on a millivolt scale) and squeezed it. The tighter we squeezed, the higher the voltage got. At this particular manufacturer (same knock sensor, same ignition) they even had a bulletin which came out for us to retorque sensors on cars within a certain VIN range..... even new cars in stock.
Keep us posted on how it works.
BTW, Who is Ed?
Mark
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Abe Crombie on
Sunday, 26 October 1997, at 2:21 p.m.
Dave, what Volvo do you own and why did you have to go up two grades of fuel?
Was it pinging? Has the thermostat in air cleaner been checked? (if equipped with that feature). The dealer is likely correct that all is okay as pertains to their service. Volvos since the late 80's have had non-adjustable timing and fuel mixture, so there is little that can be touched on a newer car to cause pinging. The thermostat in the air cleaner causing problems is a more recent finding that may not have been checked when you went back with your concerns.
I don't think any state regulatory board or the BBB has the expertise to fix your problem, so go back to the dealer and speak with the service manager (not the service advisor) and let him know you have an unresolved concern.
Re: Knock sensor torque[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Sunday, 26 October 1997, at 4:24 p.m.
I figured at least one of the govt regulated agencies had a cracker jack mechanic they way their names get bantered around.
Shop Responsibility for Knock sensor torque.[ALL/1998] posted by Duane on
Monday, 27 October 1997, at 7:11 a.m.
The Better Business Bureau and any State automotive shop regulatory board do not help to solve mechanical problems. They are an alternative to small claims court when dealer/shop and customer do not agree as to who is responsible for some repair work. There are a few (one I used in CA) where the mediator was an automotive instructor who knew more than the mechanic the dealer said was their expert. He had the expertice to cut through the bull the dealer and mechanic where shoveling around and in addition to refunding the excess cost of a repair not needed, slapped them with a hefty fine to boot.
How many of us are working on our own vehicles because we cannot find or trust a competent shop?? We are the lucky one's with the ability to solve our own problems. Others are not and can get "taken to the cleaners" , repeatedly in some areas.
The car in this instance came back worse than when it came in. The shop should be compelled legally to return it to the same condition it was first presented at no cost ot the owner if they do not do it voluntarily. In this case since a comment was made that the shop could find nothing wrong there is a problem either with the compentency of the mechanics or the attidute of the dealership.
Even if the autos from certain years are "not adjustable" (there is an initial adjustment at the factory and if the AMM is changed it has to be adjusted ) so something had to have been changed, omitted, damaged (pick one or add your own) to make the car run worse and require more octain than the manual indicates. The diagnoses and correction is not the responsibility of the owner.
My further .02.
Duane
Re: Shop Responsibility for Knock sensor torque.[ALL/1998] posted by abe crombie on
Monday, 27 October 1997, at 11:22 a.m.
I was not trying to throw excessive amounts of salt into an open wound with my previous post. My point is to give the repair facility a chance. This is usually most effectively done by a conversation with the service manager.
As for the air mass meter thing, there are no adjustments on LH2.4, 3.1, 3.2 and motronic systems used in Volvos. The ECM has default values that begin to be changed and upgraded as soon as the engine warms up and O2 sensor works. This "learning" type of ecm eliminates the need for any adjustment of CO at the AMM.
The AMM is calibrated during manufacture, but not by a screw adjustment but by a trimming of a resistor.
Re: Knocking sense into a dealer[ALL/1998] posted by Dave Stevens on
Monday, 27 October 1997, at 4:17 p.m.
Unfortunately this incident with the dealer is ancient history, but here's the full story anyway.
We're talking about an '89 740 B234F (owned since new). From my own experience and what I hear, this was not the most trouble free engine Volvo ever came up with (16 valve DOHC with lots of top end power, for those not familiar). Mine
was unfortunately early production out of Halifax and has had more than its share of problems, the most chronic of which has been a slight lack of power (compared to when new) and numerous bouts of rough idling/stalling, but never a hint of pinging.
The performance problems started to be noticed immediately after the first major service at the dealer. Return visit #1 found a cracked (intake/vacuum?) hose and the assurance that all was now well. Indeed a 50% improvement, for about a month. Visit #2 (with written problem history and requesting a conference with the service advisor), I said the rough idling/stalling had
returned and under acceleration it seemed like the timing was too retarded (my old 140 and wife's 240 ran better). After having another go at it, they said the engine seemed to be running fine now and told me to try switching to the top grade of gas to prevent recurrence (I'd been on 89 reg+ and went to 94 prem+, did he mean avgas?) and come back if it got worse. Again a 50% improvement, for about a month.
The next time I casually chatted to the service adviser about it he said this was a "grey" problem area not showing up on the hoist. They appeared none too keen to follow up further on it other than to say book another appointment. I was not pleased that they didn't seem to have any theories on what was happening or a concrete plan of action.
Abe is quite right, I should have insisted on escalating this from the service advisor ("take two aspirins and call me in the morning") to the service manager ("sorry, you need to make an appointment") to the regional Volvo service rep ("sorry, only dealers allowed to talk directly with God") to Volvo NA customer service ("you should see your dealer about this -and by the way you weren't very kind to us on that last customer satisfaction survey"). At the time I was more interested in talking to the original mechanic to find out what he'd touched other than the oil filler cap and the radio knob that could have reduced acceleration. I never did get to talk to him. They only had one B234 trained mechanic at the time (out of 10 or 12), he was fairly senior and busy on more definitive problems (like "Help, the SERVICE light is on!").
As I was losing 1/2 day of work on each visit, not to mention my patience, I resolved myself to the "do it yourself" approach (I'd mastered my old B21, so why not this complicated monster). A month or so later it was running rough again. A few minutes of staring and poking and I discovered two spark plugs were loose (blow-by on a cold engine). By now I was smelling incompetence (I suppose it's debatable who's). Re-torqued the plugs. Happened twice more (even switched plugs) before I finally figured out my head (I mean the engine) needed the plugs torqued like a cast iron Brick and I've had no trouble since. That explained why it would run not too bad for the month following each visit to the dealer (and I was wondering if it was getting lonely).
The rough idling/stalling (bronchitis) is now under control. As Abe had previously posted, I needed a thorough throttle body cleaning/adjustment, even though it passed the "click-click" test and visually looked fine. The Haynes specs were inadequate. The AllData CD contains a Volvo TSB that has the full details and states different clearances for the B234F depending on engine serial number. Indeed mine was one of those engines and it was a bit out of adjustment. Now that I've been there, throttle body cleaning and occasional re-adjustment is now added to flame trap cleaning as a ritual not to be overlooked (some Volvo's seem to spit up oil like a newborn).
So I'm still left with memories of better acceleration and cheaper fill-ups. The dealer is left with memories of a customer who didn't come back once he got off warranty (actually, it's taken a number of other less than satisfactory experiences with this dealer to push me over the edge). I now use my old independent Volvo specialty shop for anything I can't handle (and I get to
talk to the mechanic, service advisor and owner all in one go).
When Ed mentioned knock sensor torque, I grabbed the idea immediately. The jury is still out on whether that's going to improve acceleration. Once I've determined that the engine is still running half smooth, I'll try going down a grade in gas to see how it goes.
One thing I am now aware of is that LVP (low vapour pressure) fuels were being introduced around the time these problems began. I know the B23OF LH 2.4 computer got a different profile for these fuels, but the B234F didn't (either it didn't need it or they couldn't be bothered because of the low production). Also, the B234F is higher compression and probably needs a little more octane to run properly. My trusty B230F runs fine on 87 (actually 87 winter/89 summer) and the B234F started out running fine on 89 so I would expect 89/91 should be adequate. Time will tell.
Re: Volvo's Turbo+ Kit[ALL/1998] posted by Bob Ziegler on
Friday, 24 October 1997, at 6:21 p.m.
Thanks for the info, Steve. I am waiting for my K&N filter, and will definitely inspect the throttle plate for full deflection. I've also heard of removing the sound insulation in the airbox for better flow. Any thoughts on this? Also, the only place I found with a cat-back exhaust for my car was Group 6. Do you know of any others?