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850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Walter Nash on
Sunday, 9 November 1997, at 9:43 p.m.
I just had Bilstein shocks and struts, sway bars, and a strut brace(all from IPD) installed by my local dealer on my 850 Turbo. Big troubles. The front end "folds in" when you make a low speed turn. The steering wheel winds up into the turn and does not re-center on exit from the turn. Shocks are not binding, coils are not binding, the steering rack is in straight, and the alignment numbers are within spec. It is bilateral and not present in reverse, all of which is indicative of a caster problem. HELP!! Email direct to wbnash@dakotacom.net
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Walter on
Friday, 14 November 1997, at 6:22 a.m.
Problem solved! IPD suggested going to a different alignment shop and I did so. It turned out that the first shop's machine was miscalibrated and the numbers showed ok when in fact there were big troubles. Problem found and easily fixed. Life is good again!
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by orson on
Friday, 14 November 1997, at 12:17 p.m.
So how's the new set-up? I would appreciate detailed comments for those (such as myself) also considering the set-up that you purchased. Did you have the Volvo 'sport' suspension to begin with?
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Walter on
Saturday, 15 November 1997, at 9:50 a.m.
My 850 Turbo did not have the sport suspension that is a factory option. I have used IPD sway bars on several 240's I have owned in the past with great success. I installed the Bilstein shocks, the front shock tower brace, and the sway bars-all from IPD. The bars only come in one configuration(not two-regular and stiffer as they did earlier). IPD has apparently worked long and hard to get these bars right even though it meant delaying them in getting to market. The package appears to work very well. The shocks are much better than the stock ones, especially in that they do not "crash through" on sharp bumps. The bars are great in reducing body roll. The whole package really "crisps up" the response of the car especially on turn in(no more wallowing and hunting). I am unable to isolate the impact of the strut brace but anything that reduces flex helps. The package is also very roadable in that it does not rattle your fillings out or otherwise compromise the comfort of the car. I am very pleased.
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Tuesday, 18 November 1997, at 2:06 p.m.
Walter, did you get your Bilsteins from IPD? I've added the 'sport' dimensionesd sway bars to my 854T along with most of the IPD performance upgrades, and feel that it handles very well. Although I would like to remove some of the harshness you feel over things like expansion joints...You feel almost everything you go over...I would much rather have this than an American floaty type ride which is the antithesis...With the sway bars, I find the suspension in general to be very communicative, and stiff in a performance kind of good way. Did you find the Bilsteins were able to better damp the expansion type of bumps, without either adding to , or removing anything from the currently firm nature of the ride, the character of which I'd like to keep.
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Walter on
Tuesday, 25 November 1997, at 8:04 p.m.
Paul,
I did get the Bilsteins from IPD. The shocks are a bit firmer,but not bone-jarring and they respond much better on sharp impacts than do the stock ones. Better spike dampening. On expansion jonts the impact is more muted but still there. Hope this helps. Walter
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Monday, 1 December 1997, at 1:54 p.m.
See, thats what I'm having a hard time understanding. When you say that the Bilsteins are 'a bit firmer... than stock...', I already feel my stock shocks, especially when combined with my iPD sway bars, feel about as firm as is possible. For instance, there is virtualy zero nose dive or squat. Over larger , rolling type bumps, there is no floaty feel. Over expansion type bumps, there is harshness with nothing soft. So, how could anything be 'firmer' than these, without having absolutely zero give, which is how I'd describe my stock shocks?
When you say they are not 'bone jarring', since many folks describe the stock shocks as being bone jarring, how could anything described as Firmer be LESS bone jarring than the stock shocks? It does seem like a contradiction.
Lastly, when you say they respond better to sharp impact, I presume you mean they are Less Harsh. How can they accomplish this by being Firmer? Isnt it the firmness of the stock shocks which is partially to blame for the harsh response to the expansion joints?
To me, it feels like, if anything, the stock setup is overshocked, and undersprung. That being the case, how could even stiffer shocks help soften the ride? Paradox??
(I've got the 850 Turbo. I dont recall if you do, but perhaps we have different stock suspensions?)
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Walter on
Monday, 1 December 1997, at 8:32 p.m.
I have a '95 850 Turbo that came with the stock(not Sport) suspension. My car was "floaty" at high speeds and hesitant on turn in. It also exhibited a lot of body roll. Bigger sway bars will take away body roll, floatiness, and crisp up the response(due to eliminating the roll and mushiness). If really big, they can make a car seem harsh. My stock shocks were not too harsh, rather they lacked enough initial compression dampening to absorb spike impacts. Thus they would"crash through" to the end of the dampening stroke and seem stiff when in fact the problem was not enough initial dampening. The Bilsteins have better initial dampening which is quite progressive in that it is supple yet absorbs the sharp jolts(like expansion joints) far better than the stockers. I do not know(or recall) if your car has the sport suspension. If so, that could explain the difference in what our cars feel like. The sport package may be characterized by far stiffer shocks than stock. The trend now is to softer springs and firmer compression(and rebound)dampening on sports sedans. I had a '90 BMW 325IS that I put a Korman package on that contained very firm Bilsteins, very large diameter sway bars, and shorter(lower ride height) springs. It cornered like a slot car but would indeed jar the proverbial fillings from one's teeth. All of this suspension business is most complex and package-oriented. Something can be more supple and firmer. It all has to do with the balance of the package. The Bilsteins and the sway bars(now only one diameter rather than the earlier two-one thicker-choices) are great together. Far less body roll, great turn in, and at the same time nicer riding due to the aforementioned dearth of crash through. Hope this helps.
Walter
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Thursday, 4 December 1997, at 8:34 a.m.
Thanks Walter for your good answer. My '95 850 Turbo came with regular suspension. Since then, I've added the IPD ECU, exhaust, and Sport Sway bars (25mm front, 22mm rear solid bars). The sway bars solved the excessive body roll problem which accompanied the stock suspension, as well as making the whole setup feel tighter, and with quicker and more responsive turn in. Great! I guess its the shocks which are confusing me. You talk about 'crash through'. While I've read this term several times in the literature, I'm not sure how to detect it. When I encounter pronounced expansion joints in the road, rather than absorbing the bumps, the 'jolt' seems to be transmitted throughout the car not as any floaty or soft movement, but rather as a hard, undamped kind of feeling. The body seems to produce zero movement in response to these small bumps. Other cars I've driven which do have soft shocks and springs seem to 'roll' over such joints and bumps. That's why I say that my shocks feel very stiff and firm: because there is no roll or floatation feeling over these bumps. And with the new sway bars, of course, taking care of cornering roll, there is no roll whatsoever in respone to any maneuvers.
Since we both had stock suspensions (I have the sedan; do you have the sedan or the wagon? Maybe that's the difference we perceive?!), I wonder why your shocks are perceived as too soft while mine as too hard. Also, I've been curious all along as to whose dampers Volvo is using in these 850s. Yet, I'm getting no answers. My guess is that they are Boges, but I cant get confirmation on this. I've even read where Volvo is using Monroe Sensa Traks on the 850s. It would be good to know, since when it comes time for replacing, if you wanted to change the damping characteristics, you probably would NOT want to replace them with the same brand! Anyway, particularly with the ECU producing over 275 HP and the Sway BArs, this is one blast to drive. Its a great car which I hope to keep for many years.
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Walter on
Thursday, 4 December 1997, at 10:36 a.m.
I have the sedan. The newer(which I have) sway bars may not be as large as your Sport ones. Crash through is simply the shock moving quickly through its travel on sharp jolts becuse of insufficient spike dampening. Spike dampening is the ability of a shock to deal with sharp impacts rather then gradual ones. The initial compression dampening level is independent of spike valving. You may have a car with softer dampening that will roll over jolts because it has better(or stiffer yet progressive)spike valving. When a shock crashes through the shock moves quickly through its initial travel w/o moving the body(chassis) until it bottoms. Big jolt. Teeth chatter, children cry, wives scream. When the dampening works properly, the body(chassis) may move somewhat as the shock absorbs the jolt. Thus, in crash through situations the body will not float-it stays motionless(relatively) while the wheel moves sharply upward until it hits the bottom of the dampening stroke. I do not know the oem shock brand or what the factory replaces them with. That about exhausts this poor criminal defense lawyer's limited expertise(a tactful euphemism) on the subject. Scott Hart at IPD is very cooperative and may be a good source of more info for you. I would like to know about the IPD ecu and exhaust mods on your car. Any installation troubles or tips? Any problems in use? Big improvement? Any driveability problems?
Thanks,
Walter
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Thursday, 4 December 1997, at 11:39 a.m.
Hi Walter,
Thanks for your comments above....According to your definition of Crash Through, I dont think that's what I'm experiencing on spike damping situations. Its more like a very firm feeling shock which allows the body to move only very slightly...It just kind of feels like you would expect a car to feel which had very firm shocks....Yet its hard to say, because it does kind of feel like the body is motionless, with the hard jolt. But it doesnt feel like a travel, and then a jolt. Just a hard instaneous reaction to the expansion joint. which I guess could either be Very Hard Damping, or else No Damping At All (ie crash through)...
Anyway, to your ECU interest. Following is a short thread between myself and Thomas at TME, the company which developed the ECU upgrade, and supplies IPD with many of their 850 and X70 performance parts, capturing my initial response to the receipt of my ECU:
> >> Last night after I got home from work, with much fear and trepidation, I sunk my reprogrammed ECU which arrived yesterday, into the middle slot of my
computer box in my '95 850 turbo, and gingerly turned the ignition key. I half didnt know know what to expect, awaiting for lights to flash, warnings to appear, and all kinds of system failures. Instead, the idle was the same as before (I didnt even notice a setpoint reset period), and all warning lights after power on self test went out, as normal.
With a sigh of relief, I took it out of the garage, and proceeded down the
road toward my 10 mile test circuit. With my stock chip, in order to get the kind of driveablity I would like, I had to drive in sport mode, otherwise the tranny would shift at about 3k rpm, where I would prefer between 3.5k and 4.5
k rpm. The problem with sport mode, though, was that when starting from a dead
stop, it would too easily down shift while going too slowly producing an
unpleasant whine at that low speed. With my new ECU, in economy mode, the shift points seem to be close to what I prefer, making the sport mode now unnecessary but for unusual circumstances > (as in putting it to those wise guy teen age pony drivers!).
Overall, I can hardly describe how pleased I am with the upgrade! Its so torquey now, that driving it takes alot of attention, lest you wind up off the
road, or in someones trunk. Yet it behaves as smoothly as ever. I even think
I can detect an increase in the mileage the computer is registering, if thats possible. And, since I almost never punch it to the floor or run WOT, I'm sure
that any increased wear on the components will be negligable.
I would recommend this purchase to anyone who enjoys combining power, and the refinement that the Volvo driving experience brings.
.
.
.
.
Once again, great KUDOS to IPD and TME for a wonderful product. You guys > certainly do make
motoring FUN....
E-mail from: Paul Elliott, 21-Feb-1997
<<
>
Hi,thanks for the kind words. The ECU's have a read protection from
Bosch, so it's not possible for the dealer to scan or read anything on
any ECU. Since the OBD-II and the diagnostics are fully functional, they
must test drive it or take the whole ECU apart to find anything. If the
check engine light comes on for any reason, like a defective sensor or something, it's just to reset the
ECU at any dealer after fixing
whatever is wrong.
Thanks Thomas
< <<
Re: 850 front end troubles[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Friday, 5 December 1997, at 10:31 p.m.
Maybe I can shed a ray of light on this suspension damping issue. I revalve suspension on dirtbikes and am very familiar with what you may be trying to explain. I get big bucks for altering these characteristics.
First of all, lets get a little terminology straight.
Compression damping is the resistance to the shock (obviously) compressing.
Rebound damping is the resistance to the shock coming back up to its "rest" position.
Lets get a little more specific now. High speed compression damping is (what Walter referred to as "spike" damping. Walter is very close in his findings)for a quick hit. This refers to wheel up and down movement, NOT vehicle speed. Examples of this are small sharp edged bumps, one layer of asphalt coming apart and creating a 1" ledge, etc. Low speed compression damping is for "dips" in the road, lower wheel movement type hits.
A shock can have soft low speed damping (for a nice cushy ride) but have too much high speed damping. This would give the harsh feel over expansion joints Paul was referring to and still be too soft overall. This all depends on the type of valving in the shock and how sophisticated the shock is. More money generally means better valving. Not necessarily better damping but more sophisticated valving. This is where I come in with the dirtbike thing. I alter the factory shim stack, oil viscosity, oil quantity and spring rates to get the best of both worlds.
Hope this clears up a little confusion.