BrickBoard Archives
The files contained in this listing have been automatically archived from the active forums. Because the vast majority of posts are now in one place, this archive is considered legacy. You should use the SEARCH feature OR choose your topic and select date tabs within the forum you choose.
Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Allan Chen on
Monday, 3 November 1997, at 12:32 a.m.
So - I'm thinking that my car, a 1989 740 GL non-turbo, sways too much at even moderate speeds on turns and that the suspension is _way_ too "mushy" (bouncing after hitting bumps is no fun). I want to do something, but I don't know much about suspension/other performance improvements, and I don't want to get steamrolled by a local shop.
Questions:
-Do I need sway bars? Do all of them serve the same purpose? That is, can I just buy the ones from IPD or are there higher performance models?
-Should I be looking to change the springs or the shocks? No idea here.
-What good brands are there?
thanks,
allan chen
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Monday, 3 November 1997, at 3:17 p.m.
Generally, if your shocks were in good shape, a replacement with stiffer sway bars would practically eliminate the body roll you experience. But when you say that your car bounces after hitting bumps, and is mushy, it sounds to me like you need to replace your shocks. Upgrading you sway bars while leaving worn shocks is a bad idea. So, first, you need to replace your shocks. Name brands which offer good performance for Volvos include Bilsteins, Konis, Boges, and Monroe Sensa Tracks. After you do this, you will no longer be 'mushy' and some of the body roll will be taken out. If you desire more roll be removed, by all means, buy the IPD bars....Theyre the most experienced at your Volvo application. Finally, folks sometimes, as a last step, replace their springs with lower, stiffer ones. More often than not, this is done to accomplish that 'boy racer' look which some find appealing. The downside is that its far to easy to remove the necessary suspension travel, and wind up with the ride of a go kart. At any rate, spring replacement is likely to have the least bang for your buck, and should only be considered after the shocks, and sway bars are done....Have fun!
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Peter on
Wednesday, 12 November 1997, at 11:10 a.m.
Just a comment - and not to pick nits...
Replacing the shocks will only reduce body roll during relatively short-term transitional movements. Dampers effect the rate at which roll occurs, not the ultimate roll angle, which is determined by the effective spring rate. Anti-roll bars function as a spring, not a damper.
The mushy feel will be eliminated by upgrading the shocks. Body roll during long steady-state corners will not. To handle that problem, one needs anti-roll bars.
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by allan on
Wednesday, 12 November 1997, at 9:32 p.m.
Peter,
okay - the mushy feeling is the part that I definitely want to get rid of first, so you're saying I should use new shocks? What do you think of Bilsteins? Vs Tokiko Gas struts? any opinions out there?
But I also want to get rid of some of the...excessive inertial sensation I get in turns and long curves. So...now you're saying the solution is anti-roll bars. Is that the same thing as an anti-sway bar?
thanks,
allan chen
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Peter on
Thursday, 13 November 1997, at 11:01 a.m.
Allan,
Forgive me if I drone on and tell you stuff you already know. Or you could just cut to the last paragraph and read my recommendations (and ignore them, as many of my close friends do).
In an ideal world, the function of springs on a car is only to support the car at the proper ride height. The shock absorbers (properly called "dampers") control (or damp) the rate at which the suspension moves, both in compression and in rebound. A shock's compression damping rate determines at what rate the suspension will absorb a bump, and the rebound damping rate determines at what rate the spring and suspension release the stored energy.
BTW, some dampers are "gas charged" which can reduce the amount of aeration that the damper's oil undergoes, AND can act as an additional spring medium, effectively increasing - albeit probably slightly - the car's spring rate.
An anti-sway bar connects the two front or two rear wheels together and effectively increases the spring rate, but ONLY when the car is leaning. If you hit a bump while driving straight, the anti-sway bars will have no effect on the spring rate and the suspension's compliance.
So. Assuming the mushy sensation you're experiencing is "softness" over bumps and/or continued bouncing after the bumps stop, the likely cause is that the shocks are toast. Bad shocks will also affect the RATE at which the car attains maximum lean in a long corner but won't affect the AMOUNT of maximum lean.
Installing stiffer springs will reduce ultimate body roll, but will also make the car ride stiffer in normal driving. This may not be a Bad Thing - it also gives you less brake dive and acceleration squat. If you increase the rate of the anti-roll bar you will reduce the roll in corners at a minimal cost to ride quality.
IMHO you should:
Replace your shocks. Drive the car. If you want less lean, install anti-sway bars. I've used Tokikos, Bilsteins and Konis on race cars and Tokikos on my street car. I like them all but haven't used any on a Volvo. I understand that on a Volvo the Bilsteins are very controlled, yet are less stiff and more comfortable than the Konis. Given my history of driving the same race car using both Konis and Tokikos, I suspect that the Tokikos are comparible to the Bilsteins. Bilsteins are probably the way to go for a street car. I understand that you can get them cheaper than the cost at which IPD offers them.
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Topi on
Thursday, 13 November 1997, at 4:19 p.m.
My 2 cents : 1. Anti-sway bars work by REDUSING the traction, they DON'T add traction.
2. If you change factory setting, they always should be mounted both front and rear. Never use an aftermarket bar on one end only! So - bars reduce the traction, how come race cars use them? They are BALANCING items, doing fine tuning to make car easier to drive = faster. Also, they're quick to adjust for any given track condition and formula cars have cock-pit adjustments allowing tuning while racing. Your stock street Volvo won't corner any faster BUT IT FEELS better with the bars! It feels lighter and more comfortable 'cause it doesn't lean, but the cornering speed can be lower (if pushed really hard). Also, bars tend to rattle, jolt car up if one wheel hits the bump and reduce wheel turning (122/1800/142). Are they worth the money? Maybe....
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Peter on
Thursday, 13 November 1997, at 5:25 p.m.
Ahem,
Notice the hint of huffiness...
I never said anti-roll bars increase or reduce traction - I merely stated how they affect the dynamics of a car. Anti-roll bars can either reduce or increase traction depending on how the car is set up.
In an ideal world one wants the spring rate of a car as soft as possible (this would include anti-roll bars) and would depend on the dampers to control the dynamics of the car. However, the real world - both street and track - is rarely ideal. Anti-sway bars are part of system that is full of compromises.
As you mentioned, anti-sway bars are used as "balancing items". That is not their only or even primary function. Top heavy, production-based race cars and street cars NEED a lot of roll resistance. This is not because "stiffer is better" or inherently offers more traction, but because the camber gain built into a suspension designed for the street can't compensate for the lean these cars exhibit. As a result the inside edge of the outboard tires lift. The result is overheating, accelerated wear, loss of contact patch and loss of traction. Stiffer IS better and FASTER in this case.
This a particular problem with cars that use a strut suspension like the Volvo, especially as one puts stickier and/or wider tires on the car. One either dials in more static negative camber, puts fatter bars on the car or both.
Most street cars and I suspect all Volvos are "under barred" for fast driving. Contrary to your statement, I bet Allan's car will not only "FEEL BETTER" with stiffer bars, it'll corner faster as well. How quickly Allan wants to drive and how much he wants to compromise comfort will determine how he sets his car up.
Conversely, when racing in the rain softer springs and disconnected bars are a common setup tactic. This is an instance when stiffer ISN'T better and is SLOWER.
Having said that, in racing there are situations when a stiffer setup offers benefits. All other things being equal (meaning the tires aren't rolling over and the dynamics of the car are being well managed) , softer cars offer better traction. However, they're also more difficult to drive. The driver has to deal with greater lean angles, the car experiences greater range of motion in transitional situations, and when the traction limit is reached, it occurs more rapidly and the car is more difficult to "catch". Given my (and most driver's) less-than-Schumacher-like skill, a little stiffness and the resulting predictability is a good thing.
BTW, I never suggested only putting one bar on Allan's car. I was merely explaining how a bar works. One anti-sway bar doesn't connect all four wheels - it connects either the fronts or the rears.
You might find Carroll Smith's books useful reading - "Tune to Win" is especially good. Paul Van Valkenberg's (SP?) book and articles in Racer are worth reading as well.
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Topi on
Thursday, 13 November 1997, at 8:39 p.m.
Peter - you're the pro here! My posting was to all EXEPT you... You're the only one who knows what you're talking about...I agree with everything you say. Just wanted to correct general believe that sway-bars ADD TRACTION ! You won't believe how many "racing pros" and car builders think so, too !! I'd like to challange you, though; Bring your thick sway-bar car and I bring my leaning Brick, let see who makes the turn faster... I may scrape paint off the rocker panels, but.....Last guy who tried went trough the 4-by-6 wood fence! Couldn't keep up with The Leaning Brick ! I do anything in the name of reseach.....
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by orson on
Friday, 14 November 1997, at 12:24 p.m.
Just another point to throw in. The stock sway bars, according to IPD, on an 850 are 20mm front, and 19.5mm rear. Their 'touring' sway bar setup has a 22mm front and a 19mm rear. This setup should theoretically understeer more than the stock set-up (in addition to reducing some roll and making turn-in feel quicker). Understeer is easier to control and thus, a driver may be able to hustle around a track quicker even if he actually has less maximum lateral grip than stock.
Personally, though, I find blatant excessive understeer a bore.
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Tuesday, 18 November 1997, at 1:50 p.m.
Orson, I'm afraid your failing to take into account the fact that while it is true that the rear IPD Touring bars for the 850 are 19 mm while the stock 850 bars are 19.5, you must take into account that the Volvo bars are HOLLOW while the IPD bars are SOLID! Obviously this makes them much stiffer. I forget the formula, but hollow bars would have to be increased in diameter a great deal to equal the effect of solid bars. Actually, the closer the rear is in size to the front, the more neutral the handling, until they surpass the fronts, at which point overstear begins to take over, so what you say about stock oversteering more that IPD touring bars appears to be true, theoretically. I have the Sport bars featuring 25mm front, 22 mm rears, and I can tell you the turn in is MUCH quicker, along with a general more 'together' feel of the whole suspension, without an undue increase in harshness...A very good feeling upgrade!
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Karl Koenig on
Thursday, 6 November 1997, at 11:08 p.m.
Did something similar on my 240, since it needed shocks anyway.
Got sway bars from a turbo car and put them into my non-turbo wagon. The job was very straightforward, especially after the mods I've done on some other cars.
It corners flatter, not harsh at all. Just taking advantage of the work Volvo engineers put into it.
Plus getting parts from a wreck is cheaper.
Karl Koenig
86 240 wagon
81 BMW 528i
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Bill on
Monday, 10 November 1997, at 12:23 a.m.
After you have checked/fixed your shocks: I put a set of ADDCO (from Pep Boys) polyurethane end link bushings (Part No. 609D) on my 86 740T (I was tired of the excessive body roll, too) and they took out at least 50% of the excess sway. The front end handles better at highway speeds and it corners tighter. With an aftermarket sway bar, I'm sure it would only get better.
Bill
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Allan on
Monday, 10 November 1997, at 12:38 a.m.
These ADDCO bushings - are these any different than the one's in IPD? I'm sure they're probably cheaper, but I just wanted to know if they're the same - it allows me to use IPD as a reference...
Re: Sway bars and suspension...[ALL/1998] posted by Bill on
Monday, 10 November 1997, at 8:12 p.m.
Allan,
I haven't purchased anything from IPD as yet so I am not sure how their bushings
differ from ADDCO. The ones from ADDCO are high performance, high-density urethane and only compressed slightly when I installed them. ADDCO makes anti-sway bars to go along with the bushings, but I haven't checked to see if they make one to fit a Volvo. As I mentioned, the bushings made a big difference in dampening the body roll even in conjunction with a stock sway bar.