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Stalls on 93 854 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by mark barron on
Monday, 9 June 1997, at 1:14 p.m.
I posted a message earlier about this problem, which I thought was resolved, but the car stalled on my wife twice yesterday. Bought car w/ 82k in California,early April. It Stalled once in Bay Area on day 2 (~100 mi.)and once near Sacramento on way(~200 mi.) home, both were high speed stalls. One yesterday was at 10 mph and one at about 40 mph. Tech advisor at Sacramento Volvo, Ken, told me to watch the routing of the coil-distributor wire and the Fly Wheel sensor. At the time I did not know where to look for the FW sensor. I rerouted the coil wire so that it was further away from the MassAirFlow Sensor cable to the computer. The problem disappeared until yesterday. The weather in Cal was warm. THe weather on the way home to Mich was very cold and the spring here has been extraordinarily cool. Yesterday was the first day it felt like summer -- perhaps 75 degrees. I am supposing the problem is perhaps in the 1 - computer (god I hope not) 2 - coil 3 - coil wires 4 - MAF/MAF cable Any ideas, comments.
Help I got : Re: Stalls on 93 854 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by mark barron on
Wednesday, 11 June 1997, at 9:49 a.m.
Before you get too worried about your predicament with your 850 try something simple. Remove the cover from your control unit box (large black box behind right headlamp, on '93 models it is secured by two 8mm screws) and remove the fuel and ignition control units (turn off switch and wait 45 seconds before removal). The fuel unit is in the center and the ignition is on the left (driver's side). Pull the handle forward and the control unit will partially lift up, grab it and lift it straight up. Now re-install by inserting back into base from which removed and pushing handle back and then push down on control unit to make sure it is fully inserted. This procedure assures that your problem is not something simple like a poor control unit connection due to shallow insertion. This has fixed several errant problems on automobile electronics on several cars over the years for me. It's worth a try. Good luck. --------------- REPLY _______________ Many Thanks, for your helpful tips. I did reseat the CU's you mentioned. Great idea. It got me probing into other areas. There are 4 DTMs (DianosticTest Modes ?) available for Pin #2 of Box A. DTM 1 gave me 1-1-1 or no trouble codes stored on stack . DTM3 Stepped the car through a series of 2-3 second test runs of various parts such as Fuel Injectors, Fans,etc. DTM 4 allow the operator to enter a code corresponding to various parts. I entered the number for the CU fan (5-3-1 I think it was) --- and what to you know I heard clicks but no fan. I did this all this morning under pressure to get to work, so I must carefully rerun the procedure, but I have hope now that I am onto something, and that is much better than where I was at yesterday, when I was trying to decide which part (Coil, Spark Plug Cables, MAF cable etc) I would buy first. Mark
Re: Stalls on 93 854 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Theddy Cassaras on
Wednesday, 11 June 1997, at 5:08 p.m.
Hi from Sweden!
We had similar problems with our first 855:s which were of 93 model. The engine died while driving when taking your foot off the accelerator, and the idling was going up and down or not at all (the engine died). This was caused by an idling regulator which was filled by soot and dirt from the exhaust, and had to be cleaned or replaced by every service to work properly. This regulator or valve is placed towards the front top on the engine under a plastic shield fitted with one screw. Under the shield you'll find a round black thing fitted with a rubber band, and if I remember right there are two rubber hoses and one electric contact fitted to it. This valve has to be cleaned by every service or if it has gone too far, it has to be replaced. Maybe this is what causes your trouble? First try to blow it clean with air, if it doesn't help you'll have to change it which is a very easy operation. You'll do it yourself in about three minutes.
Theddy
Re: Stalls on 93 854 non-turbo- more than you want to hear[ALL/1998] posted by mark barron on
Thursday, 12 June 1997, at 9:53 a.m.
Thanks , Theddy, Will check it out.
Control Unit / Diagnostic Codes 1993 850 non-turbo -- 4 stalls since April 10 (65,70,10 and 40 mph) I know the first stall and I believe the second one too were under power, accelerating. VOLVO 850 # yv1LS5513p2057601 87k miles
Summary: How do I get Mode 3 and Mode 4 to work?
Background: Although Volvo Literature in Milwaukee sent me a Fenix 5.2 Engine Management Book by mistake. (which they will not take back after 2 months,bastards) I have concluded that I have LH Jetronic. The engines type indicated by the '55' above says 5254 F.
With the pin in #2 of Block A , I wish to explore the 4 DTM's (Diagnosis Test Modes?) I have read that Mode 1 and 3 must be entered before mode 4 because the Data Transmission rate will be 10X because of compatibility with the Volvo ScanTool,which I do not have.
I push the button once and release - mode 1 The LED flashes 1-1-1 indicating that there are no error codes stored
(this has been the case following all 4 stalls.) I push the button twice -mode 2
able to get the code for Throttle position to flash after I go and press gas pedal I push the button three times - mode 3
expect a series of tests run on about 9 things(EGR,Injectors,Fans, etc) to be done 3 times in a row.
instead I get the following series of events repeated 3 times
- a steady clicking or buzzing of about 30 pulses in about 3 second
I believe this is near the coolant fan
- then a clicking of 5 clicks in about 1.5 secs followed by a 0.3 sec pause
and then 2 much quicker clicks
I believe this is near the Idle Air by pass switch/valve. ------------------------------------------------------- It seems to me that Mode 3 is not working correctly, the coolant fan for example never comes on. I wait for some time , say 1 minute and then try to get into Mode 4 so that I can enter a code to , say , turn the coolant fan on or the Control Unit Fan. This has never worked. I have tried using 4 pushes on button slow|medium|and fast. I have never been able to get the fan to turn on. The literature (Fenix) indicates via the pulse diagram that the code , say , 5-1-4, is entered with 5 pulses entered when the led comes on upon entering Mode 4. After the 4 pushes on the button to get into mode 4 (while the responsing LED it still is glowing) I begin entry of the 5 pushes and then wait for the LED to come back on so I can enter the 1, when the LED does come back on , the LED flashes multiple times instead of just once to tell me it is time to enter the next 'number' . My thinking is that perhaps Mode 4 is failing because of Mode 3's failure. I have never been able to get into Mode 4.
Other observations: The stalls have all occurred with the ambient temperature of 75 -80 fahrenheit. There was a period between April 10 and June 4 where the weather was cold to cool where there were no stalls. The literature calls for minumum of 91 Octane , I have been using 89.
I plan to put 12 volts on the control unit fan, to test it and replace the paper AirFilter for control unit box.. The control units , all three seemed very hot to the touch last time I touched them.
Any ideas? Many thanks.
Re: Stalls on 93 854 non-turbo- more than you want to hear[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Thursday, 12 June 1997, at 9:51 p.m.
First of all, your system is not LH but Motronics 4.3.
Second, the cooling fan is one of the components which should come on when the "activation mode" (mode 3) is selected. Mode 2 is to check different inputs into the control unit (throttle switch, etc. Apparently you've seen this work). You can't rely on any of the info for the wrong injection system. The fan relay is located at the top of the fan shroud. Is this the "clicking" you are hearing? You should be able to feel it click. It has three (I think) electrical plugs in the bottom of it.
Mode 4 won't tell you anything. This, as you know, is to change the transfer rate.
The control units have temp sensors built in and will set a code if they get too hot.
Wish I had some ideas on the stalling, but you almost need to catch this in a failed state.
Re: Stalls on 93 854 non-turbo- more than you want to hear[ALL/1998] posted by Robert on
Thursday, 12 June 1997, at 10:43 p.m.
Mark, The 93 850 has LH3.2 fuel system and EZK ignition. This system activates the following componants in mode 3...air pump relay, air pump valve, injectors at 13Hz, and IAC valve at 1Hz. I think this system has no mode 4. You need to check for ignition fault codes at A6 of the diagnostic unit. Unfortunately stalling problems such as yours usually do not set fault codes. I deal with intermittant stalling problems often but have not had many problems with the 850 yet. There are so many things that could cause your symptoms that guessing could be very expensive. The only componant I have personally encountered that caused this problem in an 850 has been the camshaft position sensor. In one case a slight tug on the CPS wire would cause the engine to stall. Another likely cause would be the RPM sensor you spoke of earlier. I do not really suspect the ECM of any of the other parts you mentioned. Other questions.... Does the car restart right away or do you have to let it cool down? Does the engine shut off quickly as if you turned the key off or does it jerk and surge? Try watching the tachometer if possible when you feel it lose power. Does it drop to 0 immediately or slowly. Good luck, Robert
Thanks Robert and MarkRe: Stalls on 93 854 non-turbo- more than you want to hear[ALL/1998] posted by mark barron on
Friday, 13 June 1997, at 1:25 p.m.
Below is email to aber57@aol.com ---- I feel 99% sure I got it! The CU box fan is not turning. I disconnected the two wire plug on it and put 12 volts from a battery trickle charger on it , it moved ever so slightly but did not turn. Feel like a dodge a cannon ball here. It my wife's car Think I will pull the air filter for the CU and replace with a couple layers of nylon window screen , until the fan arrives. Many thanks for your input --- particularly for pointing me to the CU and its filter. =============== Mark and Robert, thought you would be interested! The engine died very quickly and snap started perfectly, first try after the stall. I did not think of shoving AT into Neutral to restart before reaching the shoulder of road. Hopefully I will never get the chance! You guys are great! P.S. Mark and aber57 say Motronic 4.3
Robert says LH 3.2
I see on page 850 - 26 of Volvo Pocket Data booklet 700,850,900 1991-1997 the following two line under Group 23 Fuel Systems -B 5254 S (LH) LH 3.2 and -B5254 S (-1996) Motronic 4.3
Correction re: aber57[ALL/1998] posted by mark barron on
Friday, 13 June 1997, at 1:40 p.m.
aber57@aol.com does not say Motronic 4.3
Re: Correction re: aber57[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Friday, 13 June 1997, at 8:14 p.m.
Sort of a moot point but no US cars had LH 3.2. All US 850s had Motronics 4.3until '96. '97 and later have Motronics 4.4.
There is no ignition control unit. Motronics does it all. The 2nd control unit under the hood (next to the F/I C/U) is the auto trans C/U.
Re: Correction re: aber57[ALL/1998] posted by Robert on
Friday, 13 June 1997, at 9:39 p.m.
Mark, All US 850s in 1993 had LH3.2, with a seperate ignition control unit. There are 3 control units in the box. Motronic 4.3 was not introduced until 1994 and only on turbo models. The 3.2 engines also had a variable induction intake manifold. The linkage and vacuum motor for this system can be seen between the center intake runners. Motronic systems did not have this system. ABE you can jump in any time!! Robert
Re: Correction re: aber57[ALL/1998] posted by abe crombie on
Friday, 13 June 1997, at 11:04 p.m.
Let me add more to the 850 control unit trivia game: Motronic couldn't be used until 1994 in 850's due to the fact that combined circuitry in Motronic (Ignition & Fuel) had to have air conditioning for hot weather operation. Look under the hood of any 1994 or later 850 and you will see the insulated duct that runs from the bulkhead out to the control unit box (this supercedes the fan and air cleaner used on 93's). Motronic needed lower board temp for reliable operation. Glance under the hood of those German guys and you'll see that they have the same "keep it cool" box(es) to make their control units happy. Here's the lowdown: 93- LH3.2/EZ129K 94-non-turbo LH3.2/EZ129K 94-97 221HP turbo Motronic 4.3 95- LH3.2/EZ129K on all man. trans. & some auto. trans.non-turbo 95-96 Motronic 4.3 w/ two speed fuel pump control - auto trans 96 Motronic 4.4 non-return fuel supply on 25%(+/-) nonturbo auto trans 97 Motronic 4.4 on all nonturbo TLEV 97 Motronic 4.4 on NEW low pressure turbo engine (GLT) TLEV 98 ALL S/V 70 get Motronic 4.4, even new 236HP turbo TLEV (just so our Canadian pals don't feel left out-- Fenix5.2 on 10 valve non-turbo 95-97 {it's like a Motronic only made by those people that brought us Regina/Rex})
Re: Correction re: aber57[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Monday, 16 June 1997, at 5:50 p.m.
Sorry for the confusion on my part. Just wanted to check today to get my facts straight. I left the dealer for a couple years right when the 850s first arrived. at least thats my story and I'm stickin' with it!
You guys are cruel! (I guess I don't have room to talk.....)
Re: Correction re: aber57[ALL/1998] posted by abe crombie on
Monday, 16 June 1997, at 6:12 p.m.
I didn't mean to sound cruel, merely informative with no emotional intonation. Robert is a shop foreman at a Volvo dealer and he gets to stare for hours at problem cars, so he usually has his facts straight. Jimmy
Re: Correction re: aber57[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Monday, 16 June 1997, at 6:41 p.m.
Looking back at my last post, I was trying to be sarcastic when I said I felt you guys were cruel, but didn't come off that way. Sorry again.
In this forum we need to be as accurate as possible and Robert was correct and I had my head up.... well, I can breathe now. You know my credentials and I try to be as precise as reasonable. I didn't mean to sound whiny.
Boy, just wait 'till I catch one of you guys.....8-Þ
Thanks for keeping me on my toes.