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Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Chita on
Tuesday, 29 July 1997, at 4:02 p.m.
An interesting perspective came up yesterday when I called one of my Volvo mavens for advice on brakes. He suggested it was a bad idea, false economy, to do anything but buy all new parts. His view is that brakes are a consumable - meant to be disposed of periodically, all the way to the axles. Old Volvo parts might meet specs, yet still, it wasn't such a good idea to save a dime on this system because it was too critical. Machinists might not be any more reliable than mechanics.
It came up because I'd received a couple of offers of "clean, but used" brake parts to replace the rust frisbees I found when I took off the wheels.
Whaddya think?
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Shatz on
Tuesday, 29 July 1997, at 4:24 p.m.
I think Volvo price their brake parts ( at least their rotors) fairly, so replacement wiith new parts is somewhat painless. I don't know what other "parts your refering to, however. Seems like a used rotor could be acceptable along as it meets minimum specs and is not warped. Finding a good shop to turn them might be a challenge.
I have rebuilt Volvo caplipers on a couple of occasions (under supervision of a mechanic), and you really need to know what you're doing. You can obtain the replacement seals etc, from Volvo but they aren't too hot on it. My experience has been on 80 DL brakes that I refurbished and our 86 GL that for some odd reason did not have ventilated calipers on the front. When I switched over, I bought used ones from Voluparts and rebuilt them, again under supervision.
They have survived the last 100k+, so I guess it's possible to do it successfully.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Stoney on
Tuesday, 29 July 1997, at 6:51 p.m.
Chita & Shatz,
I see no problem with old rotors as long as they meet present specs. Same with Caliper housings as long as new guts and seals are done. What I have noticed on "rebuilt" VOLVO Calipers is an inconsistancy tn the size and type of bleed nipples. On one they were 3 different sizes and on the other there were 2 sizes. These were from a Volvo dealer in a OEM Rebuilt marked box! I took 'em back pointed it out and the tech and checked 4 others before we found a set that "matched" IE All fittings were same size type.
I can only assume that Volvo's chosen rebuilder farms his stuff out to MORON'S REBUILDING SERVICE and they have a buncha yahoos who just use what is handy!
I have always used rebuilt parts and other than this and a few "counterfeit" NAPA part in a VOLVO Box cases, I've had good luck. (ASK ME PRIVATELY WHICH SUPPLIER SWAPS NAPA FOR VOLVO AND CHARGES YOU 2X THE NAPA PRICE BUT LEAVES THE NAPA BAR CODE ON THE PART>>>CAN'T MENTION THE NAME HERE AS I CAN'T AFFORD A LAWYER!)
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Jim Nugent on
Tuesday, 29 July 1997, at 7:32 p.m.
Stoney- Truth is an ABSOLUTE defense to libel/slander (at least under Louisiana law). In other words, if it's true, you can shout it from the mountaintop!
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Stoney on
Tuesday, 29 July 1997, at 8:12 p.m.
Just be alert about certain parts sources for older Volvos. Check the price locally and look at the part, then if you order it from a source that claims to have "imported" it from Sweden/Europe and find a US rebuilt/remanufactured part in an OEM Volvo box - send it back and buy locally!
Sure, you know the REAL truth but when their lawyer starts tossing paper at you and mentions "acceptable packaging errors" instead of "price gouging" and fraud and you have to decide if you can afford to fight it (all apologies to lawyers but ya'll cost a lotta money that I ain't got!).
I would love to tell ya the truth here but the only advice my lawyer will let me say is :
1)Pay by credit card and send the suspect parts back an cancel the deal with your credit card company!
2)Document the fraud by photographing the part, noting the remaker's name if it appears and note any barcodes.
3)NAPA Barcodes are nationwide-any NAPA store can read 'em and give you an ID that it is their barcode.
4)Inform VOLVO NA by legal, registered mail, include copies of everything!
5)Watch VOLVO do NOTHING!
This is all moot as Volvo has decided to sell all these parts and the right to remake/sell to 3rd parties! So watch the fraud continue!
We are not talking BAD PARTS! We are just discussing PREDATORY OVERPRICING!
The parts are just fine, it's the folks that sell 'em are BAD!
End of Bitch Session...Apologies to any and all offended parties....EXCEPT THE BAD GUYS AND YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Grant Marshall on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 11:35 a.m.
I have been told that the 'dust boots' on my calipers are all but gone! What are the consequences of that? New 'rebuilt' calipers next time around?
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Dave on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 2:07 p.m.
This seems to be brake topic day for me, so I'll babble on:
Dust boots should be inspected with each pad change, especially once you get to the magic Volvo 7-year mark. When the dust boots have gone (they get perforated from wear and tear) they should be replaced ASAP to prevent future problems. This is a good DIY project. Do it right, replace all of them while you're at it. Depending on the Volvo year, the dust covers are held onto the caliper body lip with a circlip. The only trick with these is to get the circlip back on without puncturing the new dust cover. Ring pliers can help. You might even want to practice by putting the old one on. A little brake fluid as lubricant on the rim of the dust cover can help to push it back on if you're having trouble.
In the words of Paul Harvey, "And now for the rest of the story...".
When your dust covers go, dirt gets onto the piston. As there is normally a minute amount of brake fluid on the piston from in/out movement through the o-ring you soon get a build up of caked and dried fluid. When you take your foot off the brake, the o-ring flexes back to a neutral position and pulls the piston back slightly. This is how the system is designed to stop brake drag which would result in premature brake wear and annoying squealing. When the piston gets dirty it can't retract properly and even worse the dirt will wear out the o-ring leading to fluid loss and eventual brake failure. This is especially a problem after you've put in a new set of pads and the piston is now retracted with the o-ring rubbing on the previously exposed grunge.
With all this in mind, it's probably a good idea to do a caliper overhaul when the dust covers go. At the least you should do a piston inspection for grunge and wear marks (if the calipers are damaged or really worn then you'll be talking a complete caliper re-build). For the brave DIY'er, you can extend the pistons all the way (clamping the other pistons and using brake pressure on the vehicle or compressed air off the vehicle to extend the target piston until it "almost" pops out -from the rotor surface use the thickness of a brake pad backing as a guide to the maximum extension), clean the pistons thoroughly using brake fluid and a stiff brush and push them back in. You might need to repeat this procedure a couple of times to get the grunge from around the o-ring. Watch your brake fluid reservoir frequently during all this to prevent overflowing or running dry. Better still, take the pistons right out and put in new o-rings. First mark the pistons for rotational alignment (this is important for some pre-'80 Volvo's -see the Haynes manual). Lubricate the rings and piston with brake fluid and be careful not to score or otherwise damage the rings when you carefully press the piston back in). Now you're into a brake fluid change which you probably needed anyway. Use a brake bleeding pressure plate not the foot pedal to pump in the new fluid or you could be inviting a premature master cylinder repair. If you're too cheap then at least use short pedal pump strokes.
Now if you're the type of person who would try to twist out the pistons using Vise-Grip pliers and WD-40 then all I can say is you'd better take it into the shop.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Ed Lipe on
Tuesday, 29 July 1997, at 10:48 p.m.
Brake rotors usually have cast in them Min. Thickness and it's also printed in brake spec. books. It's there for a reason: Use it or turn it to that point, then toss 'em. Brakes are consumable but don't get rid of them till you've used them up. Turning rotors is a no-brainer, Just find somebody that won't take off any more than necessary to true the rotor and clean it up sufficiently. Run them too thin and you'll pop a piston.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Dave on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 3:37 a.m.
Just some further babble to add to Ed's good comments on rotors:
From my experience (140/240), turning Volvo rotors is more than you should trust to your local Moron Brake and Muffler shop. Volvo rotors are tricky to mount true in the lathe unless they know which retaining flange to use (a reverse cone is not right because it won't be mating to the machined hub surface). The end result can be a beautifully smooth rotor that wobbles when you hit the brakes. I even know of a Volvo dealership getting this wrong (I suspect they may have farmed it out). If that happens then there may not be enough metal left to turn it true and you'll be into a new rotor.
Pick a good shop with VOLVO EXPERIENCE. Don't be afraid to discuss your concerns about ending up with a warped rotor, but don't insult what little intelligence they have either [[The BrickBoard hereby apologizes profusely to our professional mechanics for that last remark]]. Check the rotor for true once it's back on the vehicle. Any new pulsing, wobbling or vibration under light or heavy braking should be cause for suspicion. Pull the wheel off and do a quick check of the rotor for warpage (turning the rotor while you hold a marker steady on the caliper will do for a start). If you suspect warpage then borrow a dial indicating micrometer and refer to the allowable warpage specs (my trusty Haynes manual has them on the first page of the braking system chapter). I won't soon forget the look on the guy's face when I plunked down my rotor, the specs and my readings and told him to do it right this time.
Do not exceed the specified minimum thickness, you're only inviting further rotor warpage from uneven heat dissipation. There's nothing wrong with a used rotor if you check it out thoroughly. Depending on the kind of pads you're using and the grunge you drive through, the rotors should be turned with every 2nd pad change or so (with any luck that familiar Volvo brake squeal of yours should also go away for awhile). Safe braking is probably in your top ten reasons for owning a Volvo (right after sex appeal, eh?) -don't take chances. Also, don't confuse a warped rotor with alignment, wheel balancing, and tire ply separation problems which could give similar symptoms.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Chita on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 10:03 a.m.
Dave says, "From my experience (140/240), turning Volvo rotors is more than you should trust to your local Moron Brake and Muffler shop. Volvo rotors are tricky to mount ..."
Well, that does it - I buy new. If there's anything I learned from owning this car for so long, it's that I cannot trust most of the repair and support people locally available. The one and ONLY reason I even considered putting it back on the road now is that Net resources finally became viable. With real experts available, I had the confidence to do it.
I'm sorry if that insults any of the professionals here, but I can't risk life and limb on local machinists. My aim is to get the car going well enough to trek to the nearest _real_ experts - who are easily 90 miles away.
Coincidentally, I recently had a brake failure (the first brake failure in my whole life) in a big ole Ford F-250 truck. Pretty stunning Freeway Surprise, having your foot suddenly go all the way to the floor without even a hesitation in an 8,000 lb. truck. Then, limping into a garage and, $400 later, having the brake sink slowly to the floor within two blocks. Nope. I'm not buying another ticket, thanks, I didn't like that movie the first time...
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Ed Lipe on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 8:32 p.m.
Good notes by Dave. And no, I'm not offended.A no-brainer to some is rocket science to others and some folks you pay good money to do a relatively simple task don't have enough sense to know the difference. Even GM rotors should be turned in reference to the machined surface that contacts the hub. I've seen some folks reference off the rust built up on the rotor, and on... Don't put your faith in idiots, just find a mechanic that's good,timely, and fair. If you stick with one shop, they get to know your car and it's personality better. I know it's hard and expensive findind the right one, That's why there are Volvo independents,seek them out, they won't have to learn on your car. As for superficial cleaning of rust on rotors. Be SURE it's only superficial. RUST IS NOT A GOOD FRICTION SURFACE. If in doubt scrape it with a file to see if its real or not, otherwise a skim cut on a brake lathe will tell you what you've got under there. If no rust, then you've got fresh rotors.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Stoney on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 9:34 p.m.
The difference between a good rotor turning and a "hack" job is the attitude of the shop owner/manager. If the shop just puts 'em on one of the automated rotor lathes and doen't check the clearance and set up specs, you will get a botched job. No offense meant to good mechanics! A lot of shops work on VOLUME
and when a job comes along that might cut into their "profit time" they either turn it down or do a quick and dirty job.
This is why there are good independent tech and garages that can get top dollar but DO GOOD WORK! They understand that building a relationship with the customer is primary to the whole deal! Shops like this really don't have to advertise as the word of mouth from satisfied customers is all thye need.
We have a "high end" shop in my area, guys got tons of plaques from MG,Jag, MB, etc as a #1 mechanic and so on....But he isn't the guy that works on YOUR car! The guys and gal that work for hi do the real work and NONE of them are VISTA trained! Not one! They charge the earth, take 3-5 days to do anything, often do it wrong/half assed. They have a fancy customer re and you could eat off the floor-but the Techs. are jerks! You cannot speak directly with yoour mechanic only thru Service Advisor (owners son in law=read as MORON) who may or may not tell the tech what you want. Last time I was there I left a list of 9 items to be done and only 3 were actually done when it was "finished".
I went to another shop, smaller, not as spiffy but 4 techs all with VISTA MAster training and each had a specialty...My car was done in 4 hours, 1/2 the cost of of "Auto Boutique" he doesnt advertise but has 10-15 cars waiting for service, open 6 days and you can drop off in AM & pick up after hours! He also does not bad mouth the "other" guy-he just smiles and says "Thanks for stopping by" He also does a lot of freebies for Seniors keeping their old junkers running and not charging them except for the parts, and he only charges 'em what it cost him!
That's the kinda shop I'd like to open/run/work in! I'd call it VOLVO MENSCH!
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Erickson on
Thursday, 31 July 1997, at 2:18 p.m.
I completely agree Stoney...
I have had both good and Bad experiences with Mechanics..
One of the Best was in a Small Chev Dealership (Service Dept and showroom all in one space) with a mechanic that had been at the same place for over 40
years, even if he didn't work on your car he knew what was going on with it.
Tomorrow I have to take my 96 Dodge Ram in for a recall... First time
I'll have had it in to the dealer for anything (22,000 miles its a pup)
We'll wait and see how they do...This is going to be at a big Suburban dealer. I am curious to see how they do.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Chita on
Thursday, 31 July 1997, at 2:56 a.m.
Ed says, " Don't put your faith in idiots, just find a mechanic that's good,timely, and fair. If you stick with one shop, they get to know your car and it's personality better. I know it's hard and expensive findind the right one, That's why there are Volvo independents,seek them out, they won't have to learn on your car."
I think it's cheaper to buy whole systems and have them installed by the local "hard tryer" rather than waiting around to find an expert, or letting a "good" local shop keep trying for a long time. Mechanical exspertise not only isn't a static quantity, it's unrelated to bookkeeping and managing - which is what really puts them out of business most of the time. Even good mechanics go out of business when they don't know anything about books and tax laws, y'know? Too frequently, they fail as basic businesses, not as mechanics. Either way, customers pay the price.
Small business has a problem with capitalization anyway. But what I've noticed (doing marketing consults in the past) is that blue collar workers are especially exploited in the support structures they need as _business_ people. They are terrible shoppers, simply terrible. They get ripped off on everything from rent to parts and supplies and tools. In turn, they rip off their customers by passing on the inflated prices they've paid. I'd say 70% are poor business people in a generic sense. All of which has nothing to do with mechanical expertise - which they also do not seem to understand at a sufficient level to STUDY this stuff properly. Many end up simply repeating what they picked up at Armpit Motors, where they served a ten year apprenticeship. Actually, a bunch of them seem not to have ten years of exsperience, but ONE year repeated ten times.
Anyway - what I'm doing now is trying to get the parts with the expertise built in. Rather than asking a so-so mechanic to do a good job of fixing anything that comes up with the engine, I bought a complete engine built by an expert and had him write install instructions. It was installed, tuned, smogged and test driven in a car for two months before it was crated and shipped. It was designed to be Plug 'n' Play. I'd prefer the entire project to be that way.
The Japanese call this strategy "optimizing the 60% man." It means you try to design for the eventuality of mediocre workers, rather than stressing out the whole labor pool demanding perfection.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Gilbert Kirk on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 9:13 a.m.
Unfortunately, I've not had much luck through the years in getting my rotors turned. Seems Volvo is stingy in the amount of extra thickness it puts into them. I've had to replace them more often than not. Last I checked, it was $55 each for vented front rotors (which the 1800 series probably didn't have) on a 240 series. And that was non-dealer price. If the only problem with your rotors is that they're rusty, then I'm sure a superficial cleaning will be fine and go with 'em.
Re: Used brake parts unsafe?[ALL/1998] posted by Chita on
Wednesday, 30 July 1997, at 10:14 a.m.
Gilbert says, " If the only problem with your rotors is that they're rusty, then I'm sure a superficial cleaning will be fine and go with 'em. "
I'll remove the current hardware and when the 1800 is up to it, we'll take the parts to a genuine Volvo expert and have them machined or whatever. I'm afraid that the minute I hear, "It takes a good [x] to fix this reliably," I start running. We just don't have any good [x] here. It's a little mean to say it so bluntly, but - tough.
It won't hurt to have a spare brake system.