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More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Chita on
Friday, 25 July 1997, at 2:04 p.m.
At long last, I've had time to set up experiments using muriatic acid as a rust buster. I purchased a gallon of acid from a swimming pool supplier, plus a 50 pound bag of baking soda. The acid was $2.50, the soda about $20. The parts were all tiny - nuts, bolts, bits of rusty iron and steel from an old weight set, car parts and a bit of tailpipe broken off an old car.
- The stuff smokes as soon as you open the plastic bottle. I've read unpleasant things about migration right _through_ the container, so I've stored the bottle inside another plastic bag, then put it into another plastic bucket with a cover. I've considered taping in a few pieces of metal, as a sort of "canary in a coal mine" alarm system, to check for leakage.
- I wanted to test different objects, so I rummaged around for small rusty things. I put the part into an empty plastic bucket, tilted it and poured acid onto it.(I'd put a few drops in first, waited to make sure the bucket would hold.) I also tried putting acid in first, then dropping the part in. I tried submerging the part, also using only a small bit of acid and rocking the bucket to wash over it intermittently. All that really mattered was contact between the acid and the part.
- The acid began turning yellow the minute it hit rust.
- This stuff works FAST. In one case, a 1/4" threaded bolt, soaking ten seconds past the first two minutes or so began to eat the nickel coating off, going right down to the dull grey steel below.
- There can be smoking during the process. Breezes will blow the acrid odor around as wisps of smoke. I wore an organic vapors mask and goggles, and was careful to stand upwind, but got a slight whiff once. Make sure your mask fits right when you move. I'm a little concerned with wisps going into someone else's area though.
- Gloves: one DROP splashed somehow and the gloves which were supposed to be "acid proof" welded two (glove) fingers together! Get certified gloves or something and just stay FAR away and be very, VERY careful. My next gloves come from Graingers, period. $50 is cheaper than a trip to the Emergency Room.
- The reaction time is so fast, I think I should have been more prepared to neutralize it QUICKLY. The difference between "just right" and "too much" can be too short to walk around a table to reach baking soda. Just tilting the acid off the part doesn't stop the reaction fast enough.
- Throwing baking soda into this mix froths immediately. Do be careful never to use a container too small to contain the mix of acid and soda --> big foam.
- I also should have done the chemical calculations to give myself a more assured dilution-to-safety ratio for mixing water into the final (acid + soda) compound. I probably used a lot more water than I had to, trying to be extra careful.
- I'm still waiting to see how the various parts flash rust or whatever. One of the advantages of Naval Jelly is that it's supposed to leave a phosphate coating behind, giving you extra time to protect the denuded parts. Some parts, I'm leaving bare. Others, I'm coating with various things - metal polish, Boeshield, motor oil, alcohol. I want to see how long any of these coatings prevent flash rust so I can plan the subsequent work.
- Does anyone know where I can find plastic tongs so I can snatch parts out quickly? I'd thought of stringing the parts, but it seems to me the wires I have would also dissolve - this stuff eats STEEL.
I'd like to thank Jim for telling me about this method. It seems super cheap and useful, with ordinary care. Except for those cheapo Harbor Freight gloves, everything worked as planned. It felt controllable except for the wind. I'll think on that some more.
Re: More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Jim Ells on
Friday, 25 July 1997, at 3:50 p.m.
Chita: Look's like you're doing almost everything correctly. You're right about the mix. Depending on how intense or fast you want things to progress, dilution is the answer. The formula is something you work out to your own specs.
Don't know if you really need plastic tongs. Everyone, including myself, just uses ordinary wire or fashions a suitable hook out of a piece of welding rod.
Also right about staying up-wind of the stuff. BAKING SODA!?!?!? Did I say "baking soda?" Try TRI SODIUM PHOSPHATE (aka TSP). It's a highly concentrated detergent. Almost pure alkaline and phosphate. Kills the acid NOW! Sorry you did the baking soda thing. Damn! Not a good idea. Neutralize with TSP (get it at paint store or hardware store - 15% solution should do it) and final wash w/vinegar to remove TSP residuals. Usually, we just blow dry and blast the part(s) w/WD40, LPS 1, or anything of that family.
Good to hear your no longer "sick as a dawg."
Re: More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Chita on
Friday, 25 July 1997, at 8:28 p.m.
> by Jim Ells on Friday, 25 July 1997, at 3:50 p.m. It is a response
> to your post, "More rustbusting with muriatic," of Friday, 25 July
> Also right about staying up-wind of the stuff. BAKING SODA!?!?!? Did
> I say "baking soda?" Try TRI SODIUM PHOSPHATE (aka TSP). It's a highly
> concentrated detergent.
Don't gimme a hard time, old bean. I had to suffer plenty (and pay through the nose) to get the supplies I got - along with bad advice (not from you).
I'd wanted to experiment, make sure I really wanted to do it this way.
Looking for small quantities of materials, I searched my grocery store for
"TSP," which I'd seen many times. This time, I looked at the package. It
stated simply, "Does not contain phosphates." California has its own ideas
about eco-whatsits. I went to the pharmacy (we have BIG super grocery
stores here - you can buy bedroom slippers and motor oil in addition to
food, drugs and wallpaper). The chemist told me we didn't allow real TSP
any more. I went to a nearby hardware store anyway. The box was the same,
"Does not contain phosphates." So I asked the swimming pool guy what they
used to neutralize the muriatic. He sold me the 50 lb bag of baking soda.
That's how I came to use it.
Today, I tried again. This time, calling my favorite clerk at Home Depot. Turns out, they have a Frazee Paints franchise in the store, like a
sub-lease sorta deal, joint venture. And they do provide real TSP crystals.
Fine. I got it and some neoprene gloves.
Here's what's not fine. I smelled that muriatic this morning. It annoyed
and alarmed me. Irritated. While I was at HD, I figured I'd better pick up a better
mask. That turned out to be a full time job... That poor manager ripped
open every package in the place. None were suitable for being around acid
fumes. He tried to call the companies - nobody was home. All the companies
are in the East. He then set about calling umpteen gummint agencies.
Finally, after being transferred and given three other phone numbers, he
found a guy who apparently knew something or other about respirators. Who
then proceeded to LECTURE the Home Depot manager at length about some
regulation which California has about vendors "advising" consumers who have
NOT taken a class on using respirators. The manager just let it go on and
on. Eventually, this burrocrat did let go of the appropriate information -
which was that I must get a "yellow banded" cartridge.
I ended up at San Diego Welding Supplies. Where I got royally ripped for a cheap, sleazy respirator that cost the freaking EARTH and doesn't fit
right. But it has the required cartridge. $55 later, when I got home, I
realized I wished I'd never started this whole thing. This isn't my cup of
tea. What I should have done was take my lumps and send away for the
required cartridges from Cabot Safety. No matter what it cost - at least it
fits. Who knows, maybe the painter would not have fined me for missing
another appointment. I've blown my schedule so much already - now I'm out
$55 for a _safety device_ that is painful to use.
I feel like kicking myself.
Re: More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Jim Ells on
Saturday, 26 July 1997, at 2:55 a.m.
Gasp...Did I cause all this? Are you alright now? BTW, the only other human on this particular planet to use the term "old bean" was my mother. Seriously, only heard the term in my family. I think it's Glasswegian in origin. Mom was a Viking land grabber from the old country.
Appreciate the time spent explaining your trek(s). Hope the project works out.
Have you contacted B&D Parts in Shirley, MA? There was some mention of 1800 parts. Manifold, I believe you asked about???. Their address is bdparts.com,
Roy is the web guy with whom you'll want to speak. Regards, Jim
Re: More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Stoney on
Saturday, 26 July 1997, at 10:15 a.m.
Jim & Chita,
We have same trouble in NY State about phosphates and TSP. Sorry you discovered the analness of EPA people, (Why is our nation's watchword CYA?).
The soda idea works but as you have discovered is messy, the "real" TSP should deal with it. Muratic is nasty stuff, as you have found, but nothin does the job as fast.
The breather mask is a good idea, only thing better is a closed system like painters use when working in a spray booth or glassing stuff. I've seen 'em in both Kitplanes (BIY Airplanes) and Mustang/Muscle Car mags for home painters/glassers. Works like old airpump diving rig witha full face mask connected by hose to external air pump w/ filter (the cartridge you got will fit here as well).
Chita, I think your experimenting has both educated the rest of us and taught us a lesson about clarity.
Just be safe and take your time. If it's getting to ya, take a day and get your brain free of fumes, retrench and attack it again...
Re: More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Jim Ells on
Saturday, 26 July 1997, at 11:29 a.m.
Stone2: Hi Stone! How was the movie? Paul in Santa Ana responded to my not very sensitive comments about him @ his expense. Guess I got a little too casual. The guy is really quite nice. Probably, my Viking heritage renders me a little inconsiderate at times. I'll work on this. Damn Glasweigan DNA!
Chita's really gotten into this rust thing. Can't recall ever going so deep into such a procedure w/anyone. Having grown up among a bunch of hard core "do-ers", I forget how strange some new idea(s) can be, and how the technical know how must be absorbed before the comfort zone is reached.
Realy get a kick out of Chita. He or she really does well. Excellent writing. Great literal animation. Throughly accessable. These are qualities I've come to value and appreciate in folks, over the years. (by now, you know why-yesterday really wasn't the best of days) He or she 'called me "old bean", an old family greeting of affection. I about fell off my chair! Haven't heard that since hitting the road in 1957. I'm going to pick up a 5 pound box of TSP and send it off if Chita will forward a street address for UPS. I'm pretty sure that Washington state hasn't mucked around w/the native formula yet.
FYI-had the exhaust system replaced from the headers back w/full 2" pipe. It seems the gyro-gearloose that did the swap choked down at the headers from 2" to 1.5", creating undesirable back pressure. Am astounded at the difference. The Olds needed to breathe unobstructed.
Finally heard from Tom Brittain. He needs some advice re:tranny swaps 75-77? Maybe Abe C or one of those other really smart guys can help out.
Sure hope Paul has a sense of humor. All's meant w/respect and affection. Maybe I'll send the guy a case of beer. NBC-Jim
Re: More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Gerry Roney on
Thursday, 31 July 1997, at 10:35 p.m.
Gyro Gearloose? I laughted out loud when I read your reference to this comic book character. I thought I was the only person alive who used this term to describe the sort of technical person who comes up with Rube Goldberg-like solutions to fabrication problems. I have enjoyed your threads a great deal. Keep it up, old bean......Gerry.
Re: More rustbusting with muriatic[ALL/1998] posted by Jim Ells on
Friday, 1 August 1997, at 8:52 p.m.
Gerry: Gyro Gearloose was my first time all original hero when I was about six or seven. later on, "being there and doing that", I witnessed individual geek types that garnered respect and consideration for their talent and abilities. The name is a double edged sword in that the talents and abilites were often coupled with a visible need to be accepted among the arogant and unenlightened. Always, a part of me reserves affection for anyone pure in spirit and gentleness of heart. So...now you have it. Stevie, the diesel guy in Puyallup, while perhaps not as socially sophisticated as the average Redmond BMW master, has value far beyond what some folks might perceive - all tied up in a nice package of simple honesty and enormous ability to make any mechanical thing purrrrrr.....
When he hands you the not very big bill for his services, he's still got that same innocent dumb grin he had when you appeared at his door with your most recent disaster. "Lord, please watch over Stevie so he's there when I need'em again. Thank you very much."
Regarding the Brickboard; Perhaps the best part of jarrod having furnished us this forum is, as I see it, copius amounts of not so ordinary affection throughout the dialog... people helping people, etc. Chita commented on this once, I believe. BTW-if Chita ever offers classes in writing, I'll be the first one to sign up, regardless of cost. Check out the response to looking for Mr. Goodbar Volvo Mechanic. I printed it and shared it with my vice pres of sales & marketing. Around here we're constantly struggling with the 60% er's.
About this "old bean" thing... Are your ancestors Glasswegians? There's something funny going on! I did the west coast tour of mad Dogs & Englishmen, but that was only 27 years ago! It ain't over till it's over! My apologies for not offering any technical Volvo stuff. Hope I don't get un-subscribed by jarrod for rambling on.