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1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Albert Wong on
Monday, 8 December 1997, at 10:34 a.m.
I bought a 1996 850 from a Dallas Volvo dealer about 4 months ago, it has 44,000 miles on the odometer.
I have two problems with the car that I would like to seek expert advice on. I have been talking to the dealer, and repair shops but I just don't know who to believe. The dealer was providing good services when I was paying them for maintenance work, once they heard it may be a problem with the used car they did not respond to my inquiry. The car still have Volvo extended warrantee to 88000 miles. The two problems may be related....
First problem:
The car's alignment is pulling to the right (passenger side). I went to Firestone for a lifetime alignment work. This is after I asked the Volvo dealer about their alignment warrantee...they don't offer any, not even one month warrantee. I drove the car after Firestone's alignment, it was still pulling to the right. I took the car back to Firestone, they said they had align whatever is adjustable as per the Volvo spec. Part of the wheel can only be factory aligned. They suggested that I should check the frame, may be it is not straight(?).
I took the car to the Volvo dealer for them to align. After the alignment, they told me the car will still pull to the right because I have different tires.
Since then, I change both front tires to Bridgestone tires. The rear tires are of the same size but different brands. They still have a lot of treads left and I hate to change them. The car is still pulling right and I doubt if this is a tire problem. The pull is slight but I have to keep the steering wheel at about 5 to 10 degree counter clockwise in order to stay in my lane. It was like that since I bought it from the dealer.
After I change the tires, I went back to Firestone (using the lifetime alignment service). They still cannot make the car run straight. They told me to check with a frame shop. I went to a frame shop, they told me they are very busy and it will cost me over 150 dollars just to put the car on their machine to perform the checking.....I don't know if I am running in circle?
Second problem:
There are a lot of black dust particles accumulated on both the front chrome wheels. I washed them off and they accumulated back on within one or two days. I checked other 850 in different car parks, they do not have this heavy black dust on their chrome wheel. Some of the 850 have thin layer of dust but none have the heavy layer as compared to my car. When I replace the front two tires, I asked the mechanic about the dust. He said it is brake dust and suggested me to buy wheel guards to block the dust. I am skeptical about his diagnosis because I don't use the brake much. If it generate that much dust, it must be dragging on the wheel and it should be wear down by now. I had the 45000 miles maintenance work done at the dealership couple months ago. On paper, they indicated there are 75% of brake pads left. They did not find any thing abnormal about the brake. Also, I don't feel the car is dragging when I am driving.
I had a previous experience with another car with a misaligned front end (well I hitted a curb and I didn't have time to re-align the car for a couple weeks).
I also saw a lot of dust started to accumulate on the front tire rims. I ignored that until someone horned at me on the road. I stopped the car and looked at the tires. The inside corner of the front tires were well worn and some steel belts were showing on one of the tire. I realized that the heavy black dust on the chrome wheels were rubber tire dust. This was from my previous Galant.
With the Volvo 850, the dust has an oily feeling. I have been checking the new front tires, they appear normal. The Firestone people told me that the Caster is out of alignment spec. but they said it will not damage the tires. I am planning to take the car to another Volvo shop and ask them to check the brake and front end....the heavy dust on the tire wheels really bother me. It may be related to the alignment problem. Any advice in helping me solving the problem will be appreciated.
Regards, Albert Wong......posted on 8th Dec., 97
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by orson on
Monday, 8 December 1997, at 7:56 p.m.
1) Alignment thing. You mentioned that the Firestone dealer found the caster to be out of spec. Can you elaborate on this? In particular, if one wheel's caster is different from the other, this can cause pulling. (Ford F-250 and F-350 4x2 trucks have such a caster difference as part of the design because of the suspension's assymetry. This caster "split" causes these pickups to tend to pull to one side.)
2) Brake dust thing. This has been discussed often on the Brickboard here. I don't know how bad it is, but Volvo linings are generally quite dusty. Accept this. Dusting is just one trade-off in the formulation of brake linings. This annoyance is most probably a trade-off that Volvo accepted in exchange for better braking performance. As a reference point, I too have a 1996 850 non-turbo and I need to wash my front wheels weekly to prevent excessive build-up of dust. As far as the brake dust shields, don't even think about it. It prevents proper cooling of the brakes. Not only will you compromise braking performance, but you will shorten the life of your linings, the life of the caliper seals, the life of the wheel bearings and possibly other items.
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Mark Klein on
Monday, 8 December 1997, at 8:20 p.m.
Technically, Caster won't cause a vehicle to pull. This is what they teach in alignment school. Caster is what causes the wheels to "self center". This means thats what makes the wheels return to center by just letting the steering wheel go when coming out of a corner. This is what is taught.
In reality, its hard to say what is and isn't causing a car to pull. Basically you have to go through the process of elimination. If the toe and camber are "on the money", and you have different tires, I would rotate the tires side to side. If it is the tires causing the pull, it should pull the opposite direction after rotating the tires this way.
If the frame were out of specs, an accurate center line 4 wheel alignment should expose this problem.
I agree about the brake dust. Live with it.
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Tuesday, 9 December 1997, at 1:11 p.m.
I agree about the dust shields: forget about them......What I did on my '95 854T was to replace the stock pads with a set of Repco/PBR deluxe pads. These can be gotten from IPD...They are asbestos based, made in Austraila, are very effective, last a long time, are rotor friendly, and Do Not Dust!
As far as castor is concerned, this is a factory setting which you cannot reset. The settings which Are adjustable are front and rear toe, and front camber. That's it.
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Albert Wong on
Wednesday, 10 December 1997, at 1:06 p.m.
> >
> > To the BrickBoard helpers,
> >
> > The last alignment check from Firestone has the following measurement out of
> > spec.: Left rear Camber checked - 1.7 (spec should be -1.0 to -0.0).
> > Caster was adjusted back to spec in after Firestone aligned the car twice.
> > The dealer can't give me an alignment print-out because their printer was broken.
> > The car drives good without any other problem. The pull to the right is
> > slight but I just don't feel comfortable keeping the steering wheel at -5 to
> > - 10 degree all the time while driving (in order to keep the car straight).
> >
> > I have talked to the dealer this morning, I am going to take the car in for
> > 50,000 miles check up this Saturday. They agreed to re-check the alignment.
> >
> > About the brake, I ran my finger on all four disc at lunch to feel the wearness.
> > Both front disc have some waviness but not excessive, they worn about .050 -
> > .060" from the top. The back disc are smooth and worn about .010-.020".
> >
> > I will mention about the brake dust to the dealer.
> > I live in Dallas and I drive about 5 miles to work, fill up gas about once a week. I am getting about 20 miles to the gallon, is this about right?
> > Following are replies to Robert's questions:
> >
> > If I keep the steering wheel dead center, the car will go to the right.
> > If I keep the steering wheel at -5/-10 degree and let my hands off the
> > wheel, the car will drift to the right.
> > When I brake, the steering wheel felt normal, didn't have any vibration or
> > special pull. I don't quite understand the question about "the steering
> > wheel rotates on the hub".
> > I will see what happen this Saturday to determine if I need to get Volvo
> > North America involve. Thanks for giving me that advice.
> >
> > Thank you for all your quick responses. This is a great support group, I am
> > glad that I found you guys via the internet.
> > Albert....10 Dec. 97
> >
> >
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Albert Wong on
Wednesday, 10 December 1997, at 2:02 p.m.
Paul (Elliott),
Can you give me the phone # or Internet address for these brake pads? How much are they running for?...Thanks, Albert....10 Dec 97
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Wednesday, 10 December 1997, at 2:49 p.m.
Go to the IPDUSA.com web site and follow prompts both to the pads, and to
their order phone number. They cost around $55 total for the fronts and
$28 total for the rears. The brand is variously called Repco or PBR, and
the model is called Deluxe, not to be confused with the equally popular
Metal Master model from the same maker, which is more for autocrossing than
street use. Ipd is a great company to do business with, and its never too
soon to start up a relationship with them, and get their catalogue.
Have Fun.
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Albert Wong on
Thursday, 11 December 1997, at 11:31 a.m.
Paul (Elliott),
I have visited IPD web site. They have good info with pictures, prices and
descriptions. The brake dust is annoying, I don't see why the Volvo owners have to wash the wheel regularly because of this. I want to buy the front brake pads and install it myself. I have put pads on my previous American made car. Is it similar process for the Volvo brake pads? Do I need any special tools?
IPD sell the standard front pads for $52 and the severe service pads for
$58. Which one is on your car and do you know the major difference between these pads?
According to IPC, these PBR pads been around for a while, I wonder why Volvo didn't use them in the new models. I really think the manufacturer should solve these type of "know problem".
Thanks, Albert
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Terence Lui on
Thursday, 11 December 1997, at 12:15 p.m.
I have the Brembo sport package from IPD whith Brembo cross-drilled rotors, PBR MetalMaster pads and SS brake lines. The MetalMaster pads are great. But in cold mornings, the first 2 or 3 stops will be quite dramatic. These pads need to warmed up to perform well. But they are great. They still produce brake dust, but it is 100 times less than the OEM pads.
Terence Lui
'95 854T-5R lookalike
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Paul Elliott on
Thursday, 11 December 1997, at 12:40 p.m.
Albert, I see where Terence is recommending the MetalMaster package...These pads are from the same maker as the Deluxe pads I recommended...just a different model for a different purpose....In a broad sense, the Deluxe model is for enthusiastic Street use, where MetalMasters are more for xCrossing. You'll note Terrence's comment about difficulty in stopping when cold. Well, thats a sign which many racing pads share. They stop great when hot, but are not meant for cold use. That's one of the reasons I prefer the Deluxe pads. Also, since you hate dust as much as I do, the Metal Masters make little dust.....the Deluxe pads make NO visible dust! Being not metallic with a good amount of asbestos, they are extremely rotor freindly, and will last over 40,000 miles.
Since you just want to do the fronts, installation is pretty easy. The most complex part is reinstalling the figure 8 shaped retaining spring (which you can see throught the wheel openings). It has a lot of tension, which must be 'coaxed' back into its holes on the caliper.
Volvo couldnt use these pads because of their asbestos content. IN case you didnt know, asbestos was by far the preferred medium for brake pads until the government decided the stuff is bad to inhale. Hence, it is outlawed for domestic use. However that does not seem to apply to pads made in Australia for use here. As long as you dont directly inhale the dust, you wont have a problem.
Both the Deluxe and the MetalMaster are good pads, and have been around for a long time. Unless you plan on racing, where extreme fade control is one of your major concerns, I cant think of any reason why MetalMasters would be preferable for your application.
Lastly, for what its worth, European cAr reveiwed pads a while ago, and gave the MetalMasters the Worst review of all they tested. They did NOT review the Deluxe pads. If you need more help with the installation, dont hesitate to contact me.
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Albert Wong on
Thursday, 11 December 1997, at 3:36 p.m.
Paul (Elliott),
Thank you very much, I will order the Deluxe Pads....Albert
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by Robert on
Monday, 8 December 1997, at 9:07 p.m.
Albert,
Back when I went to school, a long long time ago, caster was the primary alignment angle associated with pulling. It was common in those days to offset caster to compensate for road crown. Road crown will tend to make a car drift right in most cases. A car will drift or pull in the direction of the side that has the least amount of caster. It would help if we knew your alignment specs. The power steering gear could also cause this problem, but is not very common. I would suggest you follow Marks advise 1st, and cross rotate the front tires. If this does not correct your problem, give us your actual alignment specs.
Robert
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by abe crombie on
Monday, 8 December 1997, at 10:15 p.m.
Caster will, on most all rear drive cars, cause a pull if the difference is too great between sides. It will pull to the side with less caster. This pull is the result of the interaction of caster AND steering axis inclination (sai). SAI is the angle created by the imaginary weight bearing centers of the upper and lower attaching points of the wheel suspension. SAI is on the same plane as camber.
Caster is much the same angle but it has a fore-aft orientation. SAI will strike the ground somewhere close to the tread area of the tire (this is variable with different car makes and FWD or RWD) and will angle in over the hood of the car. Caster will intersect the ground forward (assuming positive caster, which is by far the most common type) of the tire contact with road. With this compound angle the weight of the car bearing down on the tire will create a rotation inward. The pull is the result of the greater caster being able to create a greater force to rotate inward. When you turn the wheels the inward turning wheel has reduced force causing the inward rotation while the outward turning wheel gets greater force to turn inward, this cuases the wheels to "self-center" when you let go of wheel. NOW for front wheel drive (fwd). Due to the drive being transmitted through the steering wheels caster plays a very small part in returning the wheels to center after a turn. SAI is lower typically and caster is also usually lower on fwd models. The power transmitted through the wheels will create its own self-centering effect as the wheel on the inside of the turn
goes a shorter distance but is driven with more or less equal force so it ties to pull ahead when put into a shorter path and this will center the wheels to a great extent w/o the caster-SAI interaction. Camber, the angle of the tire touching the road, which is positive if the top of the tire leans towards the out side of that wheels fender and negative if it leans to the inside of the fender will not cause pull as long as it is close to correct spec. But if camber is out too much it causes the tire to carry too much weight on one side or the other and this increases the rolling resistance of the tire and does have some affect on the SAI and thus the potential pull created by any caster.
If your still with me and haven't given up, all this means is that you should have them check alignment and show you what deviated from the specs. Then ask them what it takes to get it back into specs. If the specs are not out, then, as Robert said, it could be the steering rack. I have left out tires as you sadi they were replaced. It might still be a good idea to have left and right front tires exchanged to eliminate a tire-caused pull.
Re: 1996 850 non-turbo[ALL/1998] posted by abe crombie on
Tuesday, 9 December 1997, at 6:20 p.m.
One more thing: the CV joints can cause a FWD car to pull. They should be checked, a dry joint will consdiderably more friction and the diff will try to push power to the good side. Thsi would normally be a noise maker, like clicking on turns.